Baptism of the Great Commission

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by JSM17, Feb 28, 2009.

  1. JSM17

    JSM17
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    Matt 28:18-20
    "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
    19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
    20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
    NKJV


    Christ commanded baptism, is this baptism in water, Spirit?
    Do we administer this baptism?

    Mark 16:15-16
    "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
    16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
    NKJV


    This is a synoptic account of the great commission, what ever baprism Jesus spoke of in Matthew, then He spoke of the same in this passage. To which Jesus says it saves. Remember that one who does not believe does not receive baptism so he is condemned without baptism and without faith. But he who does believe and is baptized will be saved. So what ever baptism Mark speaks of is the same as the baptism Matthew spoke of.

    Luke 24:47

    47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
    NKJV


    This is also an account of the Great Commission, which commanded that repentance and remission of sins be preached to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem.

    So on the day of Pentecost you have all three accounts of the Great Commission being obeyed.

    Acts 2:38-39
    "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
    NKJV



    You have belief, repentance,baptism, and remission of sins.

    The baptism that God commanded men to administer is water baptism (Acts 8:36) and when we are baptized into Christ (Gal. 3:27) we become sons through the faith ( the gospel, Gal. 3:26) and as sons and only when we becomes sons we receive the Spirit (Gal. 4:6). Christ baptizes us with the Holy Spirit Matt. 3:11
    Therefore Just as Jesus said to Nicodemus one must be born of water and spirit.

    1 Peter 3:21

    21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism(not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
    NKJV
     
  2. JSM17

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    Were the Jews in Acts 2 saved when they asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"

    If so, why were they told to repent?

    If not, why were they told to be baptized?

    In Acts 2:38, what were the Jews told to repent for?

    In Acts 2:38, what were the Jews told to be baptized for?

    Since the preposition "for" occurs only once in Acts 2:38 and since the expression "repent" and "be baptized" both come before "for the remission of sins," why is not "be baptized FOR the remission of sins" as necessary to remission as is "repent FOR the remission of sins" necessary to remission?
     
  3. steaver

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    JSM17,

    One thing you are missing from your doctrinal pov. You must be able to apply your doctrine of salvation to real life.

    The theif on the cross was not baptised in water.

    There are countless testimonies of soldiers in fox holes calling on Jesus to save them and they never were baptized with water.

    No doubt you believe the baptism must be by full submersion. There are countless believers who cannot be put under the water less they die or fall very ill.

    Now, if you reply back with "exceptions" to the written word of God, what are ye left with? Then I could preach all day long that you must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, BUT, must say there are exceptions!

    God made it so simple for us simpleminded creatures. BELIEVE and thou shalt be saved. The theives crucified on either side of Jesus did not happen just by chance. God did it for a reason. One believed, one did not. Simple salvation at a glance!

    Sorry JSM17, it is that easy to be saved. The tough part is the sanctification.

    :godisgood:
     
  4. JSM17

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    unwarranted assuptions about the thief on the cross. You do not have enough information to make that assumption whether or not the thief did or did not do anything.

    if I assume he was a Jew then he was commanded by God to be baptized by John's baptism of repentance in water for the remission of sins. Mark 1:4; Luke 7:29, 30

    But i cannot assume that he was even a Jew or whether he was obedient to John's message.

    Besides there are a few things th do not require assumptions, like the fact that the theif died under the Old Covenant and not the New which began on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 1 and forward.

    Did the thief believe in a resurrected Christ?

    Could the thief be baptized ito Christ's death?

    As for the other hypothetical situations I have no comment because the same could be said about people who almost believed our almost repented.

    However I did notice you didn't answer any of the questions.
    You also didn't even acknowledge my first post.
     
  5. steaver

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    You don't want to "hear" the biblical answers. You have chosen a position which you have decided to defend to the end. You are not looking for a consideration you may be mistaken.

    I spoke about baptism.

    You then believe in several ways to be saved. I see one way declared throughout the Old and New Testaments. Faith in the God of those testaments.

    The situations I gave are REAL LIFE SENARIOS. You have decided to restrict God to saving a person by water baptism without exception. Therefore someone on a death bed cannot be saved. Someone pinned down in a fox hole cannot be saved unless they find some water deep enough to get themselves dunked in.

    You have no comment because you have no scripture to prop up this baptism pov. You cannot make life applications with your view and therefore it is to be dismissed by the student.

    :jesus:
     
  6. steaver

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    You went from man's baptism in water (Acts 8:36) to the Holy Spirit's baptism of the heart/spirit (Gal. 3:26-27, 4:6). You even refference the distinction of (Matt 3:11) not understanding the differences.

    Mat 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

    John's baptism, which is unto repentance, is a statement by the person getting baptised that he is acknowledging his sin and his need to change his dirrection towards God.

    The Holy Ghost baptism is regeneration (Jo 3) which is the only one that saves.

    Being born again has nothing to do with water baptism. You have the two as one in the same. John made it clear there are two different baptisms...

    :godisgood:
     
  7. OldRegular

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    I am not sure what your OP is trying to establish. You really never say but apparently you are trying to prove that water baptism is essential to salvation. The only truth that is essential to salvation, given the death and subsequent resurrection of Jesus Christ, is the election to Salvation in Jesus Christ by God before the foundation of the world.

    Jesus Christ tells us in John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

    Only the elect, those given to Jesus Christ by the Father, will come to Him for Salvation.

    Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Regeneration, being born again or born from above, is required for salvation.

    We read in Ephesians 2:1-8 the manner in which God causes this to occur:

    1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
    2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
    3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
    4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]
    6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

    7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
    8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


    We see from the above passage that it is God who makes us alive while we are spiritually dead in sin and then He gives us the faith that we may believe in the work that He has done.
     
  8. Darron Steele

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    Yes; it is water baptism.

    Whom do we baptize? In other words, who is "them"?

    You apparently teach that baptism causes salvation. If so, then the people that we baptize are unsaved.

    Who is "them"? Is it "all the nations" or is it the "disciples" made from the nations? If it is "all the nations" that might be a problem, since Scripture never examples baptizing an entire nation.

    If "them" is individual "disciples," as is the pattern in Scripture, then how would it be possible to obey this command if no persons can be "disciples" until arising from baptism?

    To obey this passage, we have to be baptizing "disciples" which would require the people we baptize to be Christians.
    Really? I do not see that in the text.

    I am looking for where Jesus says `He who believes and is baptized will be saved because the latter saves, but he who does not believe will be condemned.' It is not there.

    There is what you say, and there is what Jesus Christ said. Do not treat your inference as something He said. He is the Lord Jesus Christ. You are not. You must make that distinction.

    At John 3:16-8a Jesus Christ said of Himself:
    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to |condemn| the world; but that the world should be saved through him. |Whoever| believeth on him is not |condemned|” (ASV with |TNIV|).”​
    S/he who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and is baptized will be saved, but it also true that ALL persons who believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.

    Well, I am always in favor of good biblical scholarship -- regardless of what language it is in.

    For Luke 24:47, the oldest Greek manuscripts have equivalent for "for" where the KJV has "and" so I will adapt: “repentance for |remission of sins should be preached in his name” (NASB|KJV).

    In Acts 2:38, Peter preached the same thing: “Arrependei-vos, e cada um de vós seja batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para remissão de vossos pecados” (VRA)

    Both passages teach repentance for the remission of sins. In the latter, Peter inserted the obligation to be baptized.

    The word "antitype" means a picture; another translation used is "figure" (ASV). You are trying to treat as literal something the Scriptures explicitly state is figurative.

    Our baptism is a "figure" of what really saves us: Christ's death for our sins and resurrection. It is also apparently a "figure" for "an appeal to God for a |clear conscience" (NASB|RSV 1952).

    Peter made clear that when he talked about baptism saving us, he meant "not the removal of the filth of the flesh" (NKJV) or "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" (NASB). So, he made clear that he did NOT mean that the water washing saves us.

    Our baptism is a "figure" of what really saves us: Christ's death for our sins and resurrection. You can read about how important this is in 1 Corinthians 15. It is also apparently a "figure" for "an appeal to God for a |clear conscience" (NASB|RSV 1952), a repentance that is "for remission of sins."

    There is no contradiction in Scripture. Whew! Back in December of 1998, the Churches of Christ nearly had me convinced of that, and I doubted that there would even be salvation. Fortunately, I took the trouble to really study this. The inferences of mortals are not always reliable, but the Scriptures are.

    It is totally possible to obey Matthew 28:19-20 by baptizing "disciples." If we can only `baptize' non-disciples, we would have a problem. However, since baptism does not make disciples, we can baptize "disciples" exactly as the passage tells us to.
     
    #8 Darron Steele, Mar 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2009
  9. JSM17

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    “Go…baptize…teach” are participles modifying the imperative verb “make disciples.” According to ExSyn 645 the first participle (πορευθέντες, poreuqentes, “Go”) fits the typical structural pattern for the attendant circumstance participle (aorist participle preceding aorist main verb, with the mood of the main verb usually imperative or indicative) and thus picks up the mood (imperative in this case) from the main verb (μαθητεύσατε, maqhteusate, “make disciples”). This means that semantically the action of “going” is commanded, just as “making disciples” is.

    As for the two participles that follow the main verb (βαπτίζοντες, baptizontes, “baptizing”; and διδάσκοντες, didaskontes, “teaching”), these do not fit the normal pattern for attendant circumstance participles, since they are present participles and follow the aorist main verb.

    However, some interpreters do see them as carrying additional imperative force in context.

    Others regard them as means, manner, or even result.
     
  10. OldRegular

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    Ephesians 2:8 states: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    There is nothing in this passage about water baptism. It basically repeats the same message as in John 3:16.

    To insist on water baptism as a requirement for salvation is to teach a works based salvation which puts the Church of Christ in the same league as the Roman Catholic Church. Frankly to insist on water baptism as a requirement for salvation is adding to Scripture and must be considered at least a borderline heresy since it makes salvation the purview of man rather than the Grace of God.
     
  11. JSM17

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    Thats funny, Im the borderline heritic and your the one saing that it is YOUR OWN PERSONAL FAITH ALONE THAT SAVES YOU.

    Did you read the post before your post, do YOU OLD REGULAR understand what it is saying???????????????????????????????????????????????????? Ask someone who understands the force of Greek verb (Discipling the nations) and the position of the participles (baptize and teach )on the verb.


    The force here means that in order to disciple the nations or make disciples baptizing and teaching are required for this to happen, ask anyone who knows the language. Come on find out you might be suprised.

    By the way I like Ephesians 2:8 just fine, but it is not meant to be there for you to stand your whole theology on. I understand the basis for our salvation is by grace through faith alone, oops I slipped, you guys must be rubbing off on me. JK

    Besides the logic behind Mark 16:16 is intersting, first there is doubt that it belongs there, then we go ahead and argue it so it says what we want it to say.

    Jesus what do you think? "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved;"

    1. The force of the language teaches us that these things were done before salvation accured, notice how the NASB uses the word "HAS" correctly.
    2. Shall be saved follows only after on believes and is baptized.
    3. The worst argument other than these verses do not belong is the "Jesus did not say he who disbelieves and is not baptized shall be condemned". That my friends is the biggest straw man I have ever seen.
    4 Jesus was no dummy, He knew that we would only baptize believers, so if someone did not believe then there would be no reason to baptize then. A lack of baptism will not condemn a man anlone, but a lack of faith will ensure that he does not repent or get baptized.
    5 If I wanted to know what TO DO I would understand what Jesus said. If I want to know how to be condemned undestand that Jesus tells us that disbelief is enough.

    Is this verse talking about water baptism, Spririt baptism, or both?
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

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    To baptists,

    I ask you question.

    Is baptism necesscary for to obedience? If you say, yes.

    Then, second question.

    What if suppose a person doesn't want to be baptized, what would happen to person's salvation?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  13. MorganT

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    If a person said NO, I would question whether that person had really been saved and also whether that person had been taught properly. Now to you CoC since I answered one for you, now you answer one for me

    Act 10:47-48 Can anyone forbid water that these, who have received the Holy Ghost as well as we, should not be baptized? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they begged him to stay certain days.

    They were saved before they were baptized because they already had recieved the Holy Ghost, so now your method is in error by saying that its impossible because they had not been baptized or YOUR WRONG because they had not been baptized and they had alreay been saved. The Holy Ghost doesnt Live in Lost people that is simply maddness to say that he does, so guess what these people were saved and not baptized. According to your teachings, HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE, Ill tell you how, because you are saved by Grace THRU FAITH. ONLY
     
  14. Darron Steele

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    I just read that JSM17 was alluded to as being guilty of a heresy, which is a very strong word with great potential to cause anger.

    S/he retaliated with similarly strong language.

    I am not trying to call anyone out, but I would like everyone to consider something. JSM17 appears to come from the more radical Churches of Christ.

    In radical Churches of Christ, it is common for rudeness, personal nastiness, and malicious false accusation against `denominationalists' to be ENCOURAGED.

    From what I see, JSM17 has been careful to avoid that. JSM17 has been nicer to us than JSM17's group leaders would require. So, please, everyone, let us give JSM17 a break, and try to avoid terms that are likely to cause great offense.

    I am not a moderator, and I cannot make directives. I am a simple Christian with no authority here who is just making a request to other Christians.
     
    #14 Darron Steele, Mar 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 4, 2009
  15. DeafPosttrib

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    You seem not answer my question.

    Repeat my question,

    Is baptism necessary for obedience?

    If so.

    Then, what if suppose a person who do not want to be baptize, is that good enough for person still go to heaven without having baptize?

    Throughout in the New Testament recorded telling us that EVERY saints all were baptized. I never hear or see any one verse find anywhere in the N.T. books telling us that a single truly saint who never have been baptize all the life.

    So, the question is, did the Bible say from Matthew to Revelation that, a person can go to heaven while never have baptize all life? Secon, did the Bible saying, it is okay for a person still go to heaven while refuse obey Christ's command, to be baptize?

    I believe baptize is part of great commission given from Christ, that every saints are required to be baptize. It is obey.

    In 2 Thess. 1:7-10 telling us that people will be cast away into the everlasting before Christ and angels at His coming, for not obey the gospel.

    It simple says, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ."

    Baptism is part of the gospel according Romans 6:3-5.

    Salvation is requirement to have is, to believe, repent, confess, baptized, stay faithful to God, walk in the light, endure throughout life. One time -"Believed" is not good enough. One time of "have faith", is not good enough.

    James chapter 2 teaching us that faith and work both must go together.

    Many people claim they do have faith in Christ, but they do nothing for the Lord, then, therefore, their faith is dead-that's period.

    There are lot of hearers in the churches today. But, there are truly few of "doers", therefore, most of 'hearers' are on the wide road, end up in everlasting punishment or destruction - Matt. 7:13-14.


    Being to obey by baptize is not hard to do. This is the only beginning step of Christian life as salvation. Why argue? Just do it as what Nike's famous quote says: "Just Do It".

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  16. MorganT

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    I did answer your question if you look back in my last post however you are trying very hard not to answer mine.
     
  17. DeafPosttrib

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    MorganT,

    You made post at 'Church of Christ' topic, you say:
    First, I do glad that baptists do obey Christ's commission of Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 15:15-16; Acts 1:8. Also, I do glad that, many baptists do obey Christ, to get baptized. I do believe that many Baptists are truly Christians or saints, because they did obey Christ, by believed, repent, confess, baptized, did walk with fruits, did walk in the light. Also, I do believe many Baptists are now in heaven with Lord, not because of what their religion were, not because of believed in their doctrines. BUT, because of have faith in Christ in their life, and did walked in their life. Praise the Lord.

    Also, I am glad that Church of Christ did obey Christ's commission of Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 1:8. I do believe that Church of Christ people are truly Christians or saints. Because they did obey Christ, did believe, repent, confess, get baptized, did carry their fruits, walk in the light. I do believe both Church of Christ & Baptists are truly saints or Christians.

    What's there are disagreement between of them about baptism, is it require for salvation, or just for obedience. There is much difference between of them. Only God knows them. I am not worry about Baptists and Church of Christ people, because both DID obey Christ's command for baptism. Praise the Lord.

    I do agree with you and baptists saying that baptized is order for obedience. Amen.

    My question is, WHY MUST we all have to be baptized??? What is the purpose for obey Christ. to be baptized?

    The last question is, WHAT IF suppose a person doesn't want to be baptized, is that all right or ok for person being disobedient Christ's command of baptism, still GO to heaven??? I am sure that the Lord would not be please with person who disobey His command on baptism, then what would be happen to a person afterward? Is that person still will go to heaven without having baptism all the life?

    That is a BIG question to ask you.



    Hey, again I told you, being to be baptized is NOT hard to do. Nike's famous quote says: "JUST DO IT" Baptism is a begiining of Christian life in salvation according Romans 6:3-6. Once we hear from someone saying to us, you have to be baptized because Christ commands us, then just obey Christ's command, and DO IT.

    Why argue? That is silly, I feel.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  18. MorganT

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    Well thank the Lord that my daughter has already been baptized but lets pose this question and I will use her as an example. My daughter was born with a heart defect and has had a heart attack and two strokes. She is left with a PICC line that she gets tranfusions in three days a week. She cannot take a bath or shower because it has to be kept dry. She has to take a sponge bath and has for the last 5 yrs. Now lets say that she had not been baptized up to that point that she got her PICC line and thus that PICC line prevents her from being baptized because it cannot get wet. What you are saying is this, if she had the desire to be baptized but for health reasons could not be baptized according to the Church of Christ she would be lost. Sometimes our Health prevents us from being baptized even though our hearts want to be baptized. According to the Church of Christ it doesnt matter the heart, it only matters that you get dunked. Now tell me, WHAT SAY YOU ON THIS SCENIRIO.

    Ill go on and tell you what I say. I say that Faith in Jesus Christ is all it takes to gain Salvation
     
  19. Agnus_Dei

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    As an Orthodox Christian, many of the Early Church Fathers have stated that the desire to be baptized is just as good as actually being baptized with water.

    In XC
    -
     
  20. DeafPosttrib

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    Bible doesn't saying how old of a child should get to be baptism. For example in Acts 16:31-'house', it means family, I believe it must be included children too. But, it doesn't saying how old they were. Not even, this verse saying one of them were infant baby either.

    Bible does teaching us that we must be baptized under much of water like Christ's s death as we buried with Christ, and resurrect be like Christ's according Romans 6:3-5.

    For my opinion on age of young children which age they should get baptize. We should not push them to accept Christ to be saved, and telling them to get baptize immediately. In cases, we heard that many children easy believe and accept Christ, want to be saved than older, because of soft hearts. In cases, the average age of young child understands the gospel and accepted Christ at age around 5. I think Age 5 should be good enough to able to baptize age 5 child with hands, because most of children in their age 5 are light weight, also, all pastors ought to give the instruction to them how to do before get baptism, telling them to hold their noses. I am sure that they will understand pastors' instruction before get baptize.

    Also, in other cases, if a child have health problems, like, cannot walk. But a child did actual believe in Jesus, if a Christian ask this child about baptism, if this child understand, and want to be baptize, then make appointment date for baptism, then BRING child who cannot walk or health problem, tell this child with instruction, or, unless if this child have arms or hands problems, so pastor would have to hold child's nose while baptize under the water while hold child too.

    There were many interest cases of indidviduals got baptism.

    One or two things that are not correct ways to get baptized- sprinkle water, and baptize infant baby, because of undeveloping education, and never hear gospel yet.

    Every individual must hear the gospel first before get baptize that what the Bible teaching.

    That what I believe according to the Bible.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     

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