Baptism of the Great Commission

JSM17,

One thing you are missing from your doctrinal pov. You must be able to apply your doctrine of salvation to real life.

The theif on the cross was not baptised in water.

There are countless testimonies of soldiers in fox holes calling on Jesus to save them and they never were baptized with water.

No doubt you believe the baptism must be by full submersion. There are countless believers who cannot be put under the water less they die or fall very ill.

Now, if you reply back with "exceptions" to the written word of God, what are ye left with? Then I could preach all day long that you must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved, BUT, must say there are exceptions!

God made it so simple for us simpleminded creatures. BELIEVE and thou shalt be saved. The theives crucified on either side of Jesus did not happen just by chance. God did it for a reason. One believed, one did not. Simple salvation at a glance!

Sorry JSM17, it is that easy to be saved. The tough part is the sanctification.

:godisgood:

 

You don't want to "hear" the biblical answers. You have chosen a position which you have decided to defend to the end. You are not looking for a consideration you may be mistaken.

I spoke about baptism.

You then believe in several ways to be saved. I see one way declared throughout the Old and New Testaments. Faith in the God of those testaments.

The situations I gave are REAL LIFE SENARIOS. You have decided to restrict God to saving a person by water baptism without exception. Therefore someone on a death bed cannot be saved. Someone pinned down in a fox hole cannot be saved unless they find some water deep enough to get themselves dunked in.

You have no comment because you have no scripture to prop up this baptism pov. You cannot make life applications with your view and therefore it is to be dismissed by the student.

:jesus:

 

You went from man's baptism in water (Acts 8:36) to the Holy Spirit's baptism of the heart/spirit (Gal. 3:26-27, 4:6). You even refference the distinction of (Matt 3:11) not understanding the differences.

Mat 3:11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:

John's baptism, which is unto repentance, is a statement by the person getting baptised that he is acknowledging his sin and his need to change his dirrection towards God.

The Holy Ghost baptism is regeneration (Jo 3) which is the only one that saves.

Being born again has nothing to do with water baptism. You have the two as one in the same. John made it clear there are two different baptisms...

:godisgood:

 

I am not sure what your OP is trying to establish. You really never say but apparently you are trying to prove that water baptism is essential to salvation. The only truth that is essential to salvation, given the death and subsequent resurrection of Jesus Christ, is the election to Salvation in Jesus Christ by God before the foundation of the world.

Jesus Christ tells us in John 6:37. All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Only the elect, those given to Jesus Christ by the Father, will come to Him for Salvation.

Jesus Christ tells us in John 3:3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Regeneration, being born again or born from above, is required for salvation.

We read in Ephesians 2:1-8 the manner in which God causes this to occur:

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2. Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3. Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, [by grace ye are saved;]
6. And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We see from the above passage that it is God who makes us alive while we are spiritually dead in sin and then He gives us the faith that we may believe in the work that He has done.

 

Yes; it is water baptism.

Whom do we baptize? In other words, who is "them"?

You apparently teach that baptism causes salvation. If so, then the people that we baptize are unsaved.

Who is "them"? Is it "all the nations" or is it the "disciples" made from the nations? If it is "all the nations" that might be a problem, since Scripture never examples baptizing an entire nation.

If "them" is individual "disciples," as is the pattern in Scripture, then how would it be possible to obey this command if no persons can be "disciples" until arising from baptism?

To obey this passage, we have to be baptizing "disciples" which would require the people we baptize to be Christians.

Really? I do not see that in the text.

I am looking for where Jesus says `He who believes and is baptized will be saved because the latter saves, but he who does not believe will be condemned.' It is not there.

There is what you say, and there is what Jesus Christ said. Do not treat your inference as something He said. He is the Lord Jesus Christ. You are not. You must make that distinction.

At John 3:16-8a Jesus Christ said of Himself:

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God sent not the Son into the world to |condemn| the world; but that the world should be saved through him. |Whoever| believeth on him is not |condemned|” (ASV with |TNIV|).”​

S/he who believes on the Lord Jesus Christ and is baptized will be saved, but it also true that ALL persons who believe upon the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved.

Well, I am always in favor of good biblical scholarship -- regardless of what language it is in.

For Luke 24:47, the oldest Greek manuscripts have equivalent for "for" where the KJV has "and" so I will adapt: “repentance for |remission of sins should be preached in his name” (NASB|KJV).

In Acts 2:38, Peter preached the same thing: “Arrependei-vos, e cada um de vós seja batizado em nome de Jesus Cristo, para remissão de vossos pecados” (VRA)

Both passages teach repentance for the remission of sins. In the latter, Peter inserted the obligation to be baptized.

The word "antitype" means a picture; another translation used is "figure" (ASV). You are trying to treat as literal something the Scriptures explicitly state is figurative.

Our baptism is a "figure" of what really saves us: Christ's death for our sins and resurrection. It is also apparently a "figure" for "an appeal to God for a |clear conscience" (NASB|RSV 1952).

Peter made clear that when he talked about baptism saving us, he meant "not the removal of the filth of the flesh" (NKJV) or "not the removal of dirt from the flesh" (NASB). So, he made clear that he did NOT mean that the water washing saves us.

Our baptism is a "figure" of what really saves us: Christ's death for our sins and resurrection. You can read about how important this is in 1 Corinthians 15. It is also apparently a "figure" for "an appeal to God for a |clear conscience" (NASB|RSV 1952), a repentance that is "for remission of sins."

There is no contradiction in Scripture. Whew! Back in December of 1998, the Churches of Christ nearly had me convinced of that, and I doubted that there would even be salvation. Fortunately, I took the trouble to really study this. The inferences of mortals are not always reliable, but the Scriptures are.

It is totally possible to obey Matthew 28:19-20 by baptizing "disciples." If we can only `baptize' non-disciples, we would have a problem. However, since baptism does not make disciples, we can baptize "disciples" exactly as the passage tells us to.

 

Ephesians 2:8 states: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

There is nothing in this passage about water baptism. It basically repeats the same message as in John 3:16.

To insist on water baptism as a requirement for salvation is to teach a works based salvation which puts the Church of Christ in the same league as the Roman Catholic Church. Frankly to insist on water baptism as a requirement for salvation is adding to Scripture and must be considered at least a borderline heresy since it makes salvation the purview of man rather than the Grace of God.

 

To baptists,

I ask you question.

Is baptism necesscary for to obedience? If you say, yes.

Then, second question.

What if suppose a person doesn't want to be baptized, what would happen to person's salvation?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

If a person said NO, I would question whether that person had really been saved and also whether that person had been taught properly. Now to you CoC since I answered one for you, now you answer one for me

Act 10:47-48 Can anyone forbid water that these, who have received the Holy Ghost as well as we, should not be baptized? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then they begged him to stay certain days.

They were saved before they were baptized because they already had recieved the Holy Ghost, so now your method is in error by saying that its impossible because they had not been baptized or YOUR WRONG because they had not been baptized and they had alreay been saved. The Holy Ghost doesnt Live in Lost people that is simply maddness to say that he does, so guess what these people were saved and not baptized. According to your teachings, HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE, Ill tell you how, because you are saved by Grace THRU FAITH. ONLY

 

I just read that JSM17 was alluded to as being guilty of a heresy, which is a very strong word with great potential to cause anger.

S/he retaliated with similarly strong language.

I am not trying to call anyone out, but I would like everyone to consider something. JSM17 appears to come from the more radical Churches of Christ.

In radical Churches of Christ, it is common for rudeness, personal nastiness, and malicious false accusation against `denominationalists' to be ENCOURAGED.

From what I see, JSM17 has been careful to avoid that. JSM17 has been nicer to us than JSM17's group leaders would require. So, please, everyone, let us give JSM17 a break, and try to avoid terms that are likely to cause great offense.

I am not a moderator, and I cannot make directives. I am a simple Christian with no authority here who is just making a request to other Christians.

 

You seem not answer my question.

Repeat my question,

Is baptism necessary for obedience?

If so.

Then, what if suppose a person who do not want to be baptize, is that good enough for person still go to heaven without having baptize?

Throughout in the New Testament recorded telling us that EVERY saints all were baptized. I never hear or see any one verse find anywhere in the N.T. books telling us that a single truly saint who never have been baptize all the life.

So, the question is, did the Bible say from Matthew to Revelation that, a person can go to heaven while never have baptize all life? Secon, did the Bible saying, it is okay for a person still go to heaven while refuse obey Christ's command, to be baptize?

I believe baptize is part of great commission given from Christ, that every saints are required to be baptize. It is obey.

In 2 Thess. 1:7-10 telling us that people will be cast away into the everlasting before Christ and angels at His coming, for not obey the gospel.

It simple says, "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL of our Lord Jesus Christ."

Baptism is part of the gospel according Romans 6:3-5.

Salvation is requirement to have is, to believe, repent, confess, baptized, stay faithful to God, walk in the light, endure throughout life. One time -"Believed" is not good enough. One time of "have faith", is not good enough.

James chapter 2 teaching us that faith and work both must go together.

Many people claim they do have faith in Christ, but they do nothing for the Lord, then, therefore, their faith is dead-that's period.

There are lot of hearers in the churches today. But, there are truly few of "doers", therefore, most of 'hearers' are on the wide road, end up in everlasting punishment or destruction - Matt. 7:13-14.


Being to obey by baptize is not hard to do. This is the only beginning step of Christian life as salvation. Why argue? Just do it as what Nike's famous quote says: "Just Do It".

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I did answer your question if you look back in my last post however you are trying very hard not to answer mine.

 

MorganT,

You made post at 'Church of Christ' topic, you say:

First, I do glad that baptists do obey Christ's commission of Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 15:15-16; Acts 1:8. Also, I do glad that, many baptists do obey Christ, to get baptized. I do believe that many Baptists are truly Christians or saints, because they did obey Christ, by believed, repent, confess, baptized, did walk with fruits, did walk in the light. Also, I do believe many Baptists are now in heaven with Lord, not because of what their religion were, not because of believed in their doctrines. BUT, because of have faith in Christ in their life, and did walked in their life. Praise the Lord.

Also, I am glad that Church of Christ did obey Christ's commission of Matt. 28:19-20; Mark 16:15-16; Acts 1:8. I do believe that Church of Christ people are truly Christians or saints. Because they did obey Christ, did believe, repent, confess, get baptized, did carry their fruits, walk in the light. I do believe both Church of Christ & Baptists are truly saints or Christians.

What's there are disagreement between of them about baptism, is it require for salvation, or just for obedience. There is much difference between of them. Only God knows them. I am not worry about Baptists and Church of Christ people, because both DID obey Christ's command for baptism. Praise the Lord.

I do agree with you and baptists saying that baptized is order for obedience. Amen.

My question is, WHY MUST we all have to be baptized??? What is the purpose for obey Christ. to be baptized?

The last question is, WHAT IF suppose a person doesn't want to be baptized, is that all right or ok for person being disobedient Christ's command of baptism, still GO to heaven??? I am sure that the Lord would not be please with person who disobey His command on baptism, then what would be happen to a person afterward? Is that person still will go to heaven without having baptism all the life?

That is a BIG question to ask you.



Hey, again I told you, being to be baptized is NOT hard to do. Nike's famous quote says: "JUST DO IT" Baptism is a begiining of Christian life in salvation according Romans 6:3-6. Once we hear from someone saying to us, you have to be baptized because Christ commands us, then just obey Christ's command, and DO IT.

Why argue? That is silly, I feel.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Well thank the Lord that my daughter has already been baptized but lets pose this question and I will use her as an example. My daughter was born with a heart defect and has had a heart attack and two strokes. She is left with a PICC line that she gets tranfusions in three days a week. She cannot take a bath or shower because it has to be kept dry. She has to take a sponge bath and has for the last 5 yrs. Now lets say that she had not been baptized up to that point that she got her PICC line and thus that PICC line prevents her from being baptized because it cannot get wet. What you are saying is this, if she had the desire to be baptized but for health reasons could not be baptized according to the Church of Christ she would be lost. Sometimes our Health prevents us from being baptized even though our hearts want to be baptized. According to the Church of Christ it doesnt matter the heart, it only matters that you get dunked. Now tell me, WHAT SAY YOU ON THIS SCENIRIO.

Ill go on and tell you what I say. I say that Faith in Jesus Christ is all it takes to gain Salvation

 

As an Orthodox Christian, many of the Early Church Fathers have stated that the desire to be baptized is just as good as actually being baptized with water.

In XC
-

 

Bible doesn't saying how old of a child should get to be baptism. For example in Acts 16:31-'house', it means family, I believe it must be included children too. But, it doesn't saying how old they were. Not even, this verse saying one of them were infant baby either.

Bible does teaching us that we must be baptized under much of water like Christ's s death as we buried with Christ, and resurrect be like Christ's according Romans 6:3-5.

For my opinion on age of young children which age they should get baptize. We should not push them to accept Christ to be saved, and telling them to get baptize immediately. In cases, we heard that many children easy believe and accept Christ, want to be saved than older, because of soft hearts. In cases, the average age of young child understands the gospel and accepted Christ at age around 5. I think Age 5 should be good enough to able to baptize age 5 child with hands, because most of children in their age 5 are light weight, also, all pastors ought to give the instruction to them how to do before get baptism, telling them to hold their noses. I am sure that they will understand pastors' instruction before get baptize.

Also, in other cases, if a child have health problems, like, cannot walk. But a child did actual believe in Jesus, if a Christian ask this child about baptism, if this child understand, and want to be baptize, then make appointment date for baptism, then BRING child who cannot walk or health problem, tell this child with instruction, or, unless if this child have arms or hands problems, so pastor would have to hold child's nose while baptize under the water while hold child too.

There were many interest cases of indidviduals got baptism.

One or two things that are not correct ways to get baptized- sprinkle water, and baptize infant baby, because of undeveloping education, and never hear gospel yet.

Every individual must hear the gospel first before get baptize that what the Bible teaching.

That what I believe according to the Bible.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!