Baptism--Why?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by bmerr, Jul 29, 2005.

  1. bmerr

    bmerr
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    To All,

    bmerr here. More often than not, when the topoic of baptism comes up, people run to verses that talk about faith, grace, etc. While all of these verses are wonderful, they don't really answer the question, which was about baptism.

    So, what I'd like to do on this thread, is to see if we can just discuss what the Bible says about baptism.

    - What's it for?

    - Who's a candidate?

    - What's the proper method?

    - What's its' purpose?

    - Holy Spirit baptism is also up for discussion.

    - Other related questions.

    Remember, the topic is baptism. Nobody denies the requirement of faith, confession, or repentance, so we won't need to belabor those things, unless they are deemed neccessary to make the case.

    Please include Scripture references, at least. It is preferred, but not neccessary to type them out. Use your best judgement.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  2. Johnv

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    It's an outwards symbolic symbol of inward spiritual cleansing and rebirth.

    As per the Baptist Distinctives, anyone who has become a believer in Christ, aka, born again.

    Baptist tradition hold that immersion is the sole proper mode.

    Similar to the putting on of a wedding ring when you get married. It's a symbol to the public of the relationship you have enterd into.

    B of the HS has nothing to do with water baptism.
    [/QUOTE][/QB]
     
  3. bmerr

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    JohnV,

    bmerr here. I understand how short we get on time. Please feel free to give Scripture references when you have opportunity. Enjoy the weekend.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  4. Nevertheless

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    I would like to address the question posed by the thread title: Baptism -- Why?

    For me the answer is simple. Jesus commanded it. I need no further persuasion.
     
  5. yeshua4me2

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    Jesus commanded it, and especially today that acts like a weeding out for false converts (like constantine), some are willing to "accept Jesus as Savior" but when asked ok let's get you baptized....they're always busy.


    and amen Johnv

    thankyu and God Bless
     
  6. Pastor_Bob

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    1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (KJV)

    This verse tells us that baptism cannot put away the filth of the flesh. What does it do? It is the answer of a good conscience toward God. Baptism will not wash away your sins, but it will give you a clear conscience because you know that you’ve obeyed God. Obedience always produces a clear conscience.

    Acts 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
    37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

    Philip told the eunuch that he could be baptized, but only if he believed first. Believing needs to come first. All who believe onm the Lord can be and should be scripturally baptized.

    The word "baptize" is the Greek word baptizo. You can ask any Greek scholar in any church regardless of what they believe and they will have to tell you that the word baptizo means, "to plunge, dip, or immerse."

    It is not a matter of being baptized by sprinkling or pouring or immersion, because sprinkling or pouring is not being baptized at all. The only scriptural method of baptism is by plunging under the water; by immersion.

    Matthew 3:6 And were baptized of him in Jordan [River], confessing their sins.
    Acts 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
    39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

    Anytime you read of baptism in the Word of God, you never read of sprinkling or pouring on of water. Why? Because that is not baptism. Baptism is a picture of the death of Christ. When you bury someone, you don’t throw a handful of dirt on their head. No, you bury them all the way under the ground. You cannot have a beautiful picture of the death, burial, and resurrection without the proper method of baptism. It simply cannot be pictured with a cup full of water.

    Baptism is necessary for our submission to the will of God; it is not necessary for salvation. Baptism is the very first step of obedience for the child of God after they have been saved.
     
  7. bmerr

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    Pastor_Bob,

    bmerr here. Thanks for your reply, sir. I'd have to say I can go along with just about all of it. I especially liked the "you can't bury someone by throwing dirt on their head" illustration. Very true, indeed!

    I would like to address your comments on 1 Pet 3:21, though. You said that baptism is not for the putting away of the filth of the flesh, and that's what Peter said, too. But then you said that baptism will not wash away one's sins, and I wonder, is sin the filth of the flesh, or the filth of the soul?

    I know lots of rank sinners at work, and a good many of them practice noteworthy personal hygiene. They're not what one might call "trashy people", or anything of the sort. Physically, they're squeaky clean, but their souls are black as coal, and their behavior and speech tell the tale. One need not "look on the heart" as only God can to know it.

    So I guess my question to you would be, "Is sin the filth of the flesh, or the filth of the soul, or conscience?"

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  8. Pastor_Bob

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    bmerr,

    You raise a very good and logical question. Time this evening does not permit me to go into a lengthy answer, but I promise to address this question when I have more time. Perhaps tomorrow afternoon or Monday morning.

    For now, I must explain that I do not base my beliefs of any single verse of Scripture. I try and support my position with several. Regarding this belief, allow me to offer this quick response.

    Consider this quote from a Roman Catholic catechism: "Baptism is a sacrament which cleanses us from original sin and makes us children of God and of the Church."

    A sacrament, as you may know, is a means of receiving the grace of God. The Catholic writing goes on to say, "Holy baptism is the washing of regeneration by which the new birth is wrought."

    My position on this matter is that Baptism is not a sacrament to give salvation, it is a symbol of salvation. Baptism is a symbol of the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, as we have already agreed upon.

    Baptism, IMO, is your raising the Christian flag over your life and saying, "I am a Christian." We couldn’t see inside your heart the day you were saved, so now you declare your salvation by raising your Christian flag. You’ve pictured the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

    To support this position, let me offer the following Scripture:
    Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

    The word "into" literally means, "with reference to", or "in relation to." Paul is saying that as many as were baptized "with reference to" Jesus Christ, were baptized "with reference to" His death.

    Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

    This verse says that we are "buried" with Him [Jesus Christ] by baptism. Why do you bury someone? Do you bury a person because they are dead, or in order to make them dead? There is a big difference. I certainly hope that my wife understands the difference.

    Why do we "bury" someone in the waters of baptism? Is it to bring about their death to sin? No, we bury them because they have already "died" to sin.

    Again, I will continue this discussion, as time permits, at a later time.
     
  9. hillclimber

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    Baptism--Why?

    It was a sign needed by Israel to show that their Messiah was at hand.

    Ya'll aren't going to like me so much after this topic. But I'm real tired tonight and maybe I'll let it slide in the AM. But probably not. Good night folks.
     
  10. bmerr

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    hillclimber,

    bmerr here. You've been away for awhile. Welcome back, sir. I wouldn't worry about folks not liking you much. I get the same thing. I try not to take it personally, and most of the time I don't, but we're all human aren't we?

    I hope you'll take the time to comment. It's good to know you've kept yourself safe on the road.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  11. hillclimber

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    Thank you for your good thoughts bmerr. I couldn't keep doing it without my Lord near me all the time. The older I get the less toleration I have for personal sin, and anxiously await His calling me home. But, we must persevere and prosper in the Word, being willing to share our faith.
     
  12. Timtoolman

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    Hey lighten up hillclimber. I wonder what the real maryters would say about being blasted on this BB compared to being burned or skinned alived, disemboweled, beheaded, torn in two by horses, impaled etc.
    Maybe " bring on your worse." [​IMG]

    HOpefully you have always been intorerant of sin but remembering where YOU came from ....loving towards the sinner.

    I am guessing you don't believe in baptism. Maybe you are a berean or whatever. Have a bro-in-law who is the same way. What a mess.
     
  13. hillclimber

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    Water baptism is not for today. It went away with the postponement of the Kingdom that Christ was here to install.

    Paul is thankful that he had not baptized more than a handful. I Cor:1
     
  14. Timtoolman

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    Yeah, my brother n law is a follower of Paul also.
     
  15. Frank

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    Baptism is for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38.

    The element specified. Acts 8:38. Water.

    The Term defined. Immersion. Acts 8:38. Baptism is an overwhelming or covering. cf. I Cor. 10:1-4.

    The candidate. All who have not complied with the conditions of pardon who intellectually can know and reason they have sinned. Acts 2:36,37.
     
  16. Pastor_Bob

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    1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (KJV)

    Peter very clearly points out that baptism does not wash away the filth of the flesh. It is my opinion, based on other principles taught in the Word of God, that Peter is speaking both in a literal sense, referring to an external washing for the body, and in a figurative sense referring to the washing away the filth of the soul.

    Nowhere in the New Testament do we ever find that our soul is affected by outward ceremonialism. It is always a work of God.

    Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? (KJV)

    Peter illustrates this by showing the difference between Christian baptism and the Jewish ceremonial washings. The washings were for the removal of outward impurities; Christian baptism is a means ordained of God by which we testify of our faith in Christ, and demonstrate the work that Jesus performed in His death, burial, and resurrection.

    Our soul’s salvation is not based on the outward ceremony of baptism. Our salvation is based solely on the finished work of redemption and the grace of God that makes salvation available to each of us.

    To answer your question specifically, I believe that sin can be equated with the filth of the flesh as stated in Psalms 14:3 and Psalms 53:3.

    For the Christian, sin is not the filth of the soul. Romans 7:25 and Ephesians 4:24
     
  17. Bro. James

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    Baptism--for the remission of sins?

    My Bible says "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission of sin".

    How does one get remission with water? Are you sure?

    Selah,

    Bro. James
     
  18. hillclimber

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    Frank,
    I know these things were the rule of the day but when Christ's impending Kingdom was rejected by the nation of Israel, the sign gifts and the attempt at Koinonia, all were for nothing. God raised up a new apostle, Paul, to go to the Jew and to all the world with the new gospel, "All are one before God". Baptism, tongues, gifts of prophecy, healings etc. were done away with. Peter's method for salvation was, "Repent and be Baptised for the remission of sins, and thou shall be saved. Acts 2 Requires action on our part fro salvation.
    Pauls's method was, "Believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shall be saved." Acts 16:31 Relies completely on the finished work of Christ on the Cross.
     
  19. Frank

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    Hillclimber,
    Paul was saved when he acted. Acts 22:16. The gospel of Paul was the same as the one Peter preached. Unless, you are going to accept Peter was to be accursed. cf. Gal. 1:6-8. Please note verse 33 of your text in Acts 16. it reflects the completed work of the cross. cf. Rom. 6:3-6.
     
  20. prophecynut

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    Are you saying there are two gospels?

    Tongues and miraculous healing are sign gifts and have ceased. Baptism as a condition of salvation has ceased but gift of prophecy has not (1 Cor. 13:2; 14:1).
     

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