Baptism +

The new testament congregation wherein both Jews and Gentiles are equal in the services of God and the ministry of God is a revelation first given to Peter as no such revelation was given to Paul in Acts 9. You can read exactly what Christ revealed to Paul in Acts 9 and no such revelation is given to Paul at that time. It was given to him much later in Arabia. Peter was the FIRST

Acts 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Not that the Jews should be saved the same way as the Gentiles BUT the Gentiles should be saved the same way as the Jews:


8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

You do not believe Peter as you believe Peter is saying the very opposite of his own words - that the Jews are now saved the same way as the Gentiles! You have to falsify Peter's Words.


Secondly, If Paul was the first to reveal that Gentiles would be saved and brought into the the congregation with the Jews, then why did God have to reveal to Peter THREE TIMES the vision at Joppa (AFTER Acts 9) and even after revealing it THREE TIMES Peter still did not undestand the meaning until he got to the house of Corneilius! If Paul was the first to reveal this then why did the circumcision in Acts 11 at the church in Jerusalem have to be convinced by Peter's account of the vision God gave him?

What the church at Jerusalem was convinced by Peter was that God saves Gentiles the very same way he saved Jews but what Paul brought into the picture was that Gentiles were to be treated as EQUALS in the new house of God and that God was turning from the Jews to the Gentiles as the new field of His redemptive activities.

Peter goes on to say:



10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them.
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Obviously you did not even bother to read the examples I placed before you where Paul used both "ek" and "dia" for both Gentiles and Jews and for both pre-cross and post-cross saints. Hence, your argument below that "dia" can be translated "by, through, or others" is invalid because the term itself is used for both Jews and Gentiles in regard to justification equally. Indeed, the preposition "ek" is used in regard to justification EQUALLY for "ALL" the promised seed of Abrahram which includes All the Old and New Testament saints:

Rom. 4:16 Therefore it is of (EK) faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of (EK) the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Here is black and white proof that "ek" faith is equally applied to "ALL" the true promised children of Abraham. So you cannot honestly restrict "ek" to any category of saints exclusively from another category of saints. However, that is what your position requires - hence your position is false.

Acts 10:43 uses the preposition "dia" in regard to faith as the message preached by ALL prophets in the Old Testament:

43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through (DIA) his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Not "by" his name but "THROUGH" his name! Faith which has its object "in him" must be channeled "THROUGH" his name! If you doubt that interpretation then read it again concerning Old Testament saints and their remission of sins in Romans 3:25:

Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through [DIA] faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

He is talking about justification in this text as verse 24 makes this very clear - "Being justified freely by his grace"!


In regard to justification the only difference between "ek" and "dia" is that ek is used to contrast "works" with "faith" as the source out of which justification has its basis whereas "through" defines faith as the channel through which the object of faith is received. Hence, "ek" defines the basis for justification whereas "dia" describes the instrumentality of faith through which the object of faith is embrace and received.

There is no justification for anyone at any time between Geneseis and Revelation unless faith is the basis ("ek") instead of ["ek") works and unless the object of faith is not Christ ("dia") through which justification is embraced and received. It requires both for anyone to be justified before God. Where there is no "ek" faith there is no "dia" faith and vice versa in regard to justification before God.

There is no true gospel of Jesus Christ apart from both its only basis (ek) as also its instrument (dia) through which Christ is the object received for justification.

In conclusion, you simply do not understand the a,b,c's of what is required for any human to be justified before God. It must be based upon faith alone (ek) without works and it must be Christ alone that is embraced and received (dia) through faith!




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Hope you have calmed down by now. It goes on, that you actually believe everybody from the Beginning Knew Every Thing We Know Today. We all know that Messiah was prophesied, and the price would be paid. I have no idea of why YOU cannot bring yourself to understand the TRUTH. You say Isaiah knew the name JESUS. Then why didn't he tell anyone? From heaven His name came, and it was Jesus, and scripture says it was SECRECT until announced.

You just completely refuse to believe the Prophets did not know anything more than what God told them. You are saying God told them everything. This premise that you use, that God told all to man only leads you into falsehood. He tells us in more than one place that HE HAS SECRETS: Deuteronomy 29:29, "The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law." They knew about the LAW, but they did not know about by grace you are saved through faith, the Law being dead, and man no longer must do works. We in the BODY OF GHRIST are not going directly into the Kingdom that was AT HAND. That is for all those that believe they ARE of the JEWSISH FAITh.



I have tried to show you the error that so many today are making. They actually believe they are ISRAEL. We are not, for we are of Abram, to whom God told to get away from ALL THOSE of the World, in order for HIM to make HIS OWN NATION, a WIFE, if you please. This means NO GENTIE will be allowed into the Inner Court of the Temple. By His Grace He would allow the Gentile to be close to the HOLY Place, and the HOLY OF HOLIES, BUT NO CLOSER. It is for we that teach the WORD to inform the world that today, in the Body of Christ, we are guaranteed to enter, not only the Inner Court, and go directly to the Holy of Holies, but go all the way THROUGH,for now there is no barrier. Ephesians 3:1-5,"For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit".

I keep telling you, you are not arguing with me, but with scripture, as it is NOW shown to you. What in these verses, don't you believe?

 

How many times do I have to tell you that I believe no such thing! This is your false straw man that you keep building! I have told you over and over and over that there is progressive revelation in the Old Testament concerning the gospel in regard to peripheral matters (where he would be born, how he would die, where he would be buried, etc., etc.). However, what is the same is that justification must be "EK" out of faith rather than "EK" out of works and what God has provided for justification in Christ must be received and embraced "DIA" through faith! I have proven this over and over from Scriptures that refer to both Old and new Testament saints. There is no justification without both "ek" and "dia" in regard to faith! None! Zilch!


You have a seared conscience that blinds you to God's Word.

 

Just as I thought. You didn't wish to include the part of the Great Commission as shown in Mark. If you have what the Holy Spirit can provide in that part of the Great Commission, then you are the first person to have obtained those powers since the death of the Apostle John.

But please let us stop at verse 18 for a moment. Do you have those powers; if not, then why do you believe in the Great Commission?Your strong disapproval of these verses, along with others, makes me think you only believe some of the Bible?

You do know you are not making any sense. It was years, and years after the Great Commission was given before Damascus Road. Mark is giving account of the followers, and believers in Jesus' life. Which at that time Paul was not. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John Gospels are all about the life of Jesus Christ, and not Paul. There is much that you evidently do not know. Paul did preach to the Jew the Grace that is in the Kingdom Gospel, but He also preached the Grace Gospel to the Gentile.

Paul, I believe, thought Mark was not quite ready for long missionary journeys, believing Mark should not continue with them. Barnabas thought otherwise about his cousin. The dissention was great, but I believe God's will is done in the life of all these men. We know afterwards Mark favored Paul (II Timothy 4:11) over the Jerusalem Saints, including his cousin Barnabas who was greatly swayed by the Jerusalem church that James was now head of. Mark had finally come to the conclusion, just as Peter did (II Peter 3) that Paul had wisdom given to him which concerned the Body of Christ, which those of Jerusalem were now learning. I believe what I read in the Bible, so I believe All of Mark, I believe All of James, I believe all of Peter, I believe all of Paul, and all the rest of the Bible.

See what I told you before? Acts is the Bridge that gets you from the Old to the New. Of course Paul preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of God. But did he not also preach to the Gentile the BODY of CHRIST? Does God have a Kingdom? You bet. But what you lack knowledge of is that The Father gave to His Son, our Lord Jesus Christ a Kingdom of His Own. Did you also know that Jesus gave to His earthly apostles a Kingdom of their own? It really does help to know there are Kingdoms in the Kingdom.

However what you said was, Jesus gave the Great Commission to twelve (12) Apostles right before going to His Father, so please own up to it. I too know how difficult it is when I make a mistake, such as in typing, sleepy and in a hurry to get to bed, or not looking over what I just wrote. It happens to us all. But I see you try to divert by jumping forward to Pentecost, and say "HEY! It is me that is right for I see here there are 12. But my friend not until those days from His ascension, and the day of Pentecost were accomplished, there were only eleven (11) Apostles.

I'm glad you brought this scripture into debate here for this proves very well what I have been saying. You believe you to be on the foundation that was laid by the Jerusalem Apostles. Paul was given the gift to understand the Mystery of this dispensation. This helps us understand, the BODY, the New Man, but who is in it and HOW they are to come. Who is the cornerstone of the foundation? Of course it is Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is the foundation. Who has been appointed to build on this foundation? Isn't it just as it says, "the apostles and prophets". But in the New Man, The Spiritual Body is where we find this mystery. This is the reason for Paul, The Apostle to the Gentile. Paul too is an Apostle, and a Prophet. Unless we believe Paul, which gospel proves we are heirs also, by coming through Jesus Christ, How do you plan on getting into the Body? Today we know it is THROUGH JESUS CHRIST FOR ALL.

Peter tells us we had better believe what Paul tells us, and here is a good place to start. "Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel", Ephesians 3:a4-6

Ah! From the mouth of babes.

 

Just who is it that doesn't understand justification. I believe both by and through, but you do not. You must understand both, for if you don't, you don't believe the Gentile is justified differently than the Jew. You refuse to believe what God tells you to believe.

We are saying the same thing, but you will not accept coming THROUGH Jesus christ, EVEN THOUGH YOU JUST SAID IT "6] sanctified by faith [/7] that is in me. " Once again, it is BY the faith of Jesus that made it possible for the Gentile to come to the Father THROUGTH HIM (Jesus Christ). So how are we Justifi8ed? It is BY Faith IN Jesus Christ, AS YOU CORRECTLY POSTED ABOVE, AND THAT MEANS WE MUST come through him.

I plan to drop this now, for I don't know if you will ever accept the word that Paul uses for our Justification

 

We need proof here, so give us a Quote from the wirtings of Moses to prove. As it is not said you are making it up in your mind.

 

] But you stopped reading too soon. I asked you to read further, but you stopped at verse 8. You must be following some form of References that will skirt scripture that make what you believe, put you in conflict with scripture. And as usual you will not read other scripture that will give you further information. I asked you to read Acts 15:11, "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."

 

The miracle ability of the Apostles does not in any way place any kind of limitations on this commission. If you would read Heb. 2:3-4 and 2 Cor. 12:28 you will see the apostle Paul shared equally in these abilties with the 12 and the purpose was simply to "confirm" the word they were sent to preach. That word was confirmed by these signs and this same commission is UNTIL THE END OF THE WORLD. Hence, you simply do not know what you are talking about! The signs are one thing the designated term limits of the commission is quite another thing.

Most Biblical chronologists place the damascus road conversion only 3-5 years after the giving of the Great Commission. Hence, again you are spewing ignorance.

The body of Christ is what Jesus preached in Matthew 16:18 and 18:17 as the congregational body. Preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God is simply commanding submission to God's reign and rule through repentance and faith in Jesus Christ as your LORD and SAVIOR! Again your spouting ignorance.

Technically there was only Eleven apostles when Christ gave the commission. However, he gave this commission to his congregation through the first office set in the congregation (1 Cor. 12:28) and he appointed 12 apostles. The twelve vacancy was filled PRIOR to observance of that commission.

The apostleship of Paul was unique in that it was an apostleship to the Gentiles but Paul includes the plural "apostles" as the foundation upon which New Testament congregations are built because the other apostles were instrumental in providing New Testament revelation that formed the New Testament Scriptuers along with Paul and thus were equally valid as Paul to all the congregations of Christ in the first century.

Note, he did not say it was totally unknown in other ages but rather "in other ages was not made know unto the sons of men AS IT IS NOW revealed unto his his HOLY APOSTLES and PROPHETS"

1. The same gospel essentials were preached before (Acts 10:43; Heb. 4:2) but predictive rather than fulfilment in all detals. The Apostles preached it from the perspective of fulfillment and thus with greater and fuller details.

2. It was made known to the APOSTLES plural and prophets PLURAL not just to Paul.

3. The Old Testament clearly predicted going to the Gentiles

4. The congregational body of Christ as the new house of God was completely unknown prior to the personal ministry of Christ and His institution of it (Mt. 16:18; 18:17).

5. The EQUALITY of Jews and Gentiles within this institutional body as the House of God was completely a new revelation that the Jewish congregation at Jerusalem was not aware of until the vision given to Peter in Acts 10. This came through Peter not Paul

6. God revealed this to Paul distinct from Peter who introduced to the Jewish dispersion as a totatlly new revelation of the new house of God.

7. However, this new revelation had to do with the house of God not the gospel of Jesus Christ and certainly not justification through and by faith in Christ.

 

You have absolutely no concept of Paul's doctrine of justification. There is no such doctrine of justification that is without "through" as well as "by" faith! None exists. The same doctrine of Justification THROUGH and BY faith was true with Abraham, David, Daniel, and preached by all the prophets as by Paul.

The Jew has NEVER been justified differently than the Gentile and the Gentile has NEVER been justified differently than the Jew.

Peter repudiates your chronological order that the Jews are now justified like the Gentiles:

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Your position is forced to read Acts 15:8 as follows:

Acts 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare US witness, giving US the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto THEM;
9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying OUR hearts by faith.

You don't care what the Bible teaches and you will continue to distort, pervert and abuse it to fit your false doctrine.

 

I said "There are just something's that God Hid, until He was ready to make known." The OT tells you what is coming, but does not tell you How, who (what name), When, or Where. Search the Scriptures of Old, and you will not find the name JESUS. It will not tell you that it is the Gentile that will spread the word of the lord from heaven, and it is the Gentiles that will preach to all the world the Grace of God Through Faith of Salvation; and that it is a gift without works by the hands of man.

Can you find how we are going to be taken up to heaven? They could not tell you When, for Where Good News of the Gospel of Jesus Christ would t5ake place. But now we know these things, and we know where to find them. These things we NOW know, and the beginning of the gospel to the Gentile could not begin, and be witnessed until after Damascus Road.

As I recall your emphasis was on the "sure mercies of David", as if it is David "mercies" that saves us.


To the rest of this post, my problem is what you say, viz. "to prove that salvation by grace through faith in Christ is the position of all the prophets in the Old Testament". All those believed God and Trusted Him to bring about their salvation. hy can't you show a scripture that that David or those Prophets said words to the effect, through Jesus the Messiah? If the Prophets, and David had witnessed the salvation of the Gentile "through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins", why did no one mention the Gentile (or any others) would have their sins remitted by believing on the name of JESUS, the CHRIST?
One reason you can't produce what you say is NNE KNEW THE NAME OF CHRIST THAT DIES ON THE CROSS FOR OUR SINS. HIS NAME IS Jesus Christ, which we today shout from the housetops. If any had witnessed before Acts 10, would they not have TOLD lUS? You are saying things that you cannot prove BY HIS WORD.

As I have said before, Acts 10 is the first place we see this THROUGH HIM happening. Peter and the others from the Jerusalem church had never seen such a thing. We are told they were Astonished. It is because they could not understand, until it actually happened. You presume too much in putting much of you faith into what David and the Prophets knew. Please wake up to the fact that Jesus the Christ tells us New Things. He tells us New things while on earth, and MORE NEW THINGS from heaven. David, and the Prophets could not have known what John the Baptist knew. WAKE UP MY FRIEND, and believe OUR LORD. "Until John". John could proclaim what David or the Prophets Did Not Know.

As always, you cast dispersion in an attempt to cover your lack of understanding. Please invest in a dictionary to see that some one healed in the body is NOT the same as justification for everlasting life.

You are on Mars' Hill, and I should have left early on.

 

Your points are so rediculous they are hardly worthy of consideration. First, you do not have to know that the Messiah's name is "Jesus" in order to believe in Him as your Savior. However, names in Bible times have to do with either a promise about the person or something about his character - Jesus means "Jehovah our Savior" and this is the common object of justifying faith in the Old Testament repeated over and over again in the Prophets and Psalms.

Second, the difference between "by" and "through" faith in regard to the doctrine of justification is the difference between the two Greek prepositions "ek" and "dia." Both are essential for the justification of any man at any time before God. The Greek preposition "ek" simply identifies that justification originates out of faith rather than out of works. The Greek preposition "dia" necessarily denies it is the substance of faith that justifies but rather it is the object of faith that justifies and faith is only instrumental through which the object is received and embraced.

There is no such doctrine of justification "by" works but "by" faith and there is no such doctrine of justification IN faith but only "THROUGH" faith in Christ both in the Old (Acts 10:43) and in the New (Eph. 2:8).

You are simply void of simple understanding of the essentials of the Biblical doctrine of justification.