Baptismal regeneration....

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by AAA, Mar 9, 2007.

  1. AAA

    AAA
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    Do any of you go to churches that teach that baptism is essential for salvation?

    And do you believe that yourself?

    On the basis of what scripture?

    Remeber, if you add anything to the BLOOD of Christ you are saying that it is insufficent to clense your soul and therefore you have to add your own good works to try to earn your salvation, but salvation CAN'T be earned (Eph. 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, the whole books of Gal. and Romans).

    :godisgood:
     
    #1 AAA, Mar 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2007
  2. Darron Steele

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    Yes I do.

    Personally, I object to the doctrine. It is contrary to Scripture. Ephesians 2:8-9 is cut short often; Ephesians 2:8-10 shows that our salvation is by faith apart from works, and then after salvation, works follow.

    None of the passages used to teach `salvation by completed baptism' actually do so. Often the error comes from mistranslation in English from New Testament Greek, failure to understand accurate translation into English, cutting passages off in mid-sentence, and/or failing to know what cultural norms the Bible text is actually referring to.

    I believe this error has three serious pitfalls:
    1) could cause emotional distress to dying converts with no access to water;
    2) could cause emotional distress to loved ones of a deceased unbaptized Christian;
    3) hampers Christian unity because some Christians will not accept unbaptized Christians.

    I believe that anyone with biblical faith will be baptized when properly informed and with known opportunity. Acts 2:38 as translated into Spanish and Portuguese points this way. I believe that the only unbaptized Christians are those who are wrongly informed about baptism, and/or have not had a known opportunity.

    I continue to attend such churches because they baptize immediately upon conversion. Other congregations typically do not. It is a personal opinion of mine that the Bible's conversion experience should never be trifled with. In Scripture, baptism was always done after conversion and as soon as feasible.
     
    #2 Darron Steele, Mar 9, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2007
  3. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    I have just posted this on the thread 'Catholic question',

    Matt Black quoting:
    "
    Origen refers to the tradition dating from the Apostolic Age:-
    Quote:
    "Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

    "The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]). (italics mine)


    GE:
    It is perfectly clear where the blasphemous heresy of 'baptismal regeneration' comes from; it is the full blooded offspring of post-Apostolic 'water-baptism'.

    (The print-size is not meant for emphasis, but for visibility (to myself).
     
  4. Chemnitz

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    Such posts make it completely obvious that the people who deny baptism completely ignore Rms 6. For if they were to take the passage at face value they would not deny that God works through Baptism, so contrary to Gerhard, baptism is not a heresy.
     
  5. Eliyahu

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    I don't disagree that the Baptism is the important sacrament which Jesus commanded, and that it is the starting point of the spiritual, holy life after the regeneration.
    However, it doesn't give the salvation to the sinners who do not believe in Jesus. If anyone has believed in Jesus already, then he or she is saved already.

    John 5:
    24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

    Does Jesus say Baptism is the pre-requisite for the salvation?


    -If you perform the Baptism unto the unbeliever, then you have chosen a wrong person.

    - If you perform the Baptism unto the Believer, then you are correct, but the person was already saved before you perform the Baptism when s/he believed in God.
     
  6. DQuixote

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    Well .. I thought I posted several hours ago. Anyway........

    Baptismal regeneration is scripturally unfounded.

    Acts 2:38 is the most widely abused argument for it.

    :type:
     
  7. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    GE:

    Romans 6 at face value -- Greek letters and all --- i know it by heart, and if anything is NOT found in there, it's water-baptism, but our death and resurrection in that of Jesus Christ; or, in other words in there, our baptism in that of Jesus Christ.
     
  8. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Eliyahu:

    "I don't disagree that the Baptism is the important sacrament which Jesus commanded, and that it is the starting point of the spiritual, holy life after the regeneration."

    GE:

    Water-baptism is no mystery which Jesus commanded; He commanded that HIS, baptism, the baptism by the Holy Spirit, shall be the starting point of the spiritual, holy life --- regeneration, per se.
     
  9. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Chemnitz:

    "... God works through Baptism, so contrary to Gerhard ..."

    GE:

    God is it, who works through baptism --- of the Holy Spirit (you have said it). And that is not contrary to Gerhard; that's exactly what I say! Baptism - the baptism of Jesus Christ - is not a human work - not in any way! As soon as it becomes a human work in any way, it has become a perverted way. Now baptism with or in water makes of it a human work, a fully fledged "frivolity" as Calvin said of Romish ceremonies.
     
  10. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Nevertheless man is granted a part in the work of baptism - he is to preach the Gospel, and the Gospel will immerse men "in the NAME of God", "in Christ", and in His death and in His resurrection. So will the Holy Spirit like a cloud cover them, and through the Fire of the Word of God, engulph and overwhelm and overpower whomever He wants to be merciful too, or overpower, and harden, whomever He wants to harden in heart.
     
  11. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Eliyahu:

    "However, it doesn't give the salvation to the sinners who do not believe in Jesus. If anyone has believed in Jesus already, then he or she is saved already."

    GE:

    The Baptism of Jesus Christ which is baptism with the Holy Spirit and with Power, gives the salvation to the sinner, and the faith in Him unto eternal salvation. Therefore: If anyone has believed in Jesus already, then he or she is saved already; then he or she has received the baptism that saves, already -- even the Baptism of Jesus Christ, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit by the Holy Spirit.
     
  12. Eliyahu

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    If you talk about the Baptism by Holy Spirit which means the Spiritual Baptism, then I would say Yes!

    By the Spiritual Baptism, one is saved, thereafter one can go thru Water Baptism which doesn't give the Salvation to the sinners, but the confirmation of the Salvation of the Person who was already saved by the Spiritual Baptism.

    Salvation has nothing to do with Water Baptism.
    Water Baptism itself is the most important Sacraments after someone is saved, but it doesn't save the sinners who do not believe in Jesus Christ.

    If someone believes in Jesus Christ, then she or he has been saved already.

    If someone believed in Jesus Christ but had no chance to be Baptized, He or she can still go to the Heaven.

    If someone was Baptized in the water but had no faith in Jesus yet, the Baptism would not save her or him yet.

    Salvation is achieved when the person has truly believed in Jesus Christ with the whole-heartedness which can be possible with the assistance of Holy Spirit.

    If anyone doesn't have such faith and the changing point, she or he is not saved, even though she or he has attended the church for million years!, even though he is a Pope or Pastor!
     
    #12 Eliyahu, Mar 11, 2007
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2007
  13. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Eliyahu:

    "If you talk about the Baptism by Holy Spirit which means the Spiritual Baptism, then I would say Yes!

    By the Spiritual Baptism, one is saved, thereafter one can go thru Water Baptism which doesn't give the Salvation to the sinners, but the confirmation of the Salvation of the Person who was already saved by the Spiritual Baptism."


    GE:

    Great that we agree on this the most important thing in the understanding of redemption!

    But I don't find what you have added, that works - even the works of water-baptism - is what one should 'go thru' to receive "the confirmation of the Salvation of the Person who was already saved by the Spiritual Baptism". In fact the Scriptures declare the Holy Spirit Himself is given as that very confirmation, or "downpayment".
     
  14. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Eliyahu:

    "Salvation has nothing to do with Water Baptism."

    GE:

    I also hear DHK in this.

    So what has Water-baptism then to do with salvation? Sultz! Then it has become nothing but a pharisaical offering of one's own righteousness.
     
  15. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Eliyahu:

    "Water Baptism itself is the most important Sacraments after someone is saved, but it doesn't save the sinners who do not believe in Jesus Christ."

    GE:

    What makes a mysterie 'important'? Just that it is a requisite of salvation: an act of obedience. I find no requirement of it unto salvation, nor unto obedience, in the Word of God. Every time I collide with the clear words that state baptism of and by the Holy Spirit as the condition of as well as the condition for salvation. "Baptism" in the New Testament always means total and spiritual immersion and infilling, always by and with the Holy Spirit, except in the cases of the Apostolic practice of extraordinary baptisms with or in water.

     
  16. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Eliyahu:

    "If someone believes in Jesus Christ, then she or he has been saved already."

    GE:


    Again, happy to find harmony. Again, what for water-baptism? If Jesus said we must be baptised in water it would matter; but since He said through Paul thatwe must be buried in the death and be raised in the resurrection of Himself, I see water-baptism as a begardly rudiment of the world - the kind of stuff Roman Catholic heresy thrives on and saints die of.
     
  17. Gerhard Ebersoehn

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    Eliyahu:

    "If someone believed in Jesus Christ but had no chance to be Baptized, He or she can still go to the Heaven.

    If someone was Baptized in the water but had no faith in Jesus yet, the Baptism would not save her or him yet.


    Salvation is achieved when the person has truly believed in Jesus Christ with the whole-heartedness which can be possible with the assistance of Holy Spirit.

    If anyone doesn't have such faith and the changing point, she or he is not saved, even though she or he has attended the church for million years!, even though he is a Pope or Pastor!"

    GE:

    If anyone doesn't have such faith and the changing point, she or he is not saved, even though she or he might have been baptised once or a hundred times in or with water ordinary or holy.

    Jesus asks nothing unnecessary of His followers; nothing for show or noise merely; only to follow Him -- individually as well as corporately (as the Church). For which end He provided the Church with preaching, prayer, the Word and the knowledge and understanding of it, charity, song and praises, and assemblies. That's why ONLY the "Lord's Supper" and the "Lord's Day" are given the New Testament Church -- neither of which without, it could exist or continue or persevere and triumph in the end.
     
  18. Eliyahu

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    We should realize the tactics of Satan about 2 sacraments which are very important and should not be forgotten or neglected.

    Satan brought Infant Baptism and the careless Lord Supper so that so many unbelievers can creep into the church of Christ.
    So many people could misunderstand themselves are Christians because they had the Infant Baptism, even though they had never confessed any faith.
    Many churches allowed the people who had no clear testimony of Salvation, to be baptized claiming that the salvation can be achieved by Baptism, and that Preventing Baptism means the deprival of the Salvation.

    Many church allowed the LOrd Supper to be shared by unbelieving churchmen who didn't have any experience of Being Born Again.

    As a result, the secular world could come into the churches.

    Salvation has nothing to do with Water Baptism, but the Saved person must be baptized.
     
    #18 Eliyahu, Mar 17, 2007
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2007
  19. Chemnitz

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    I guess that would explain the baptists, I mean they are always asking did God really say? :laugh:
     
  20. CarpentersApprentice

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    If you do not believe that baptism is essential for salvation what do you do with these verses:

    Acts 2:38 and 22:16
    Rom. 6:1-4
    1Cor 6:11 and 12:13
    Gal 3:27
    Eph 5:25-27
    Col 2:11-12
    1Ptr 3:18-22

    And keep reading in Titus 3:5, "he saved us... through the water of rebirth..."

    CA
     

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