Baptist and becoming Catholic

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, May 17, 2013.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    Which is A. Why I present Baptist sources on a Baptist board

    and B - why I expect that Catholic historians, and insiders showing agreement with those Baptist sources on various points of history - will play well in a Baptist context such as we have here. It is entirely suited to a Baptist such as the one you describe above.

    At no point could you have gone to your Pastor or to your class members and said "no historian can be trusted unless he has the Papal imprimatur on his book because as we all know - that is the sign and seal of least bias and most objectivity". They would have laughed you out of the pulpit and if truth were to be told - you could not have said it to them with a straight face then or possibly even now.

    I think we both know that.


    Some data in history is so blatantly obvious that BOTH protestant AND Catholic sources can be found in agreement on certain things.

    Hence my list of sources.

    I am not saying that cradle catholics will always agree with those common-ground areas - but then on this Baptist board - not all baptists will agree with the Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 (as we have seen here demonstrated a zillion times by now).



    Sometimes good and sometimes bad. When both are in agreement about the acts of history - we are getting closer to accuracy.

    But when they show some forms of agreement they are showing less objectivity and more the epidemiology of their thought coming out of the errors of the dark ages from the same source - and having to reform and rediscover the truths of the first century again.

    Catholic historians themselves admit to a few of the atrocities - and so that is helpful. But more interestingly - the Bible predicts that period - quite well.

    And what is really interesting is that with the admitted crimes against humanity, the RCCs own admitted list of what it calls "Wicked popes" and its own statements on 3 papal LINES all functioning at once and all forced to end by the Emperor --- all hope of tracing something back to Peter - ends. And with that kind of bloodshed and error filling in their past - it would be a "huge red flag" if they were to then claim that those calls for "extermination" were in fact "infallible" still to this day.

    I fail to see how a Baptist could possibly miss the point.


    I think that if you were to review that point objectively - you would find that the evidence, the subject, the material you were using at that time would be most interesting to a Baptist today.

    Far more interesting than "don't believe anything a historian says if they do not have the Papal imprimatur".

    I am hoping for a return to that former level of objectivity in your discourse on this board - since this is after all a "Baptist board".

    You and I are both outsiders to the Baptist board - notice how seldom ever - do I quote an SDA source NOR do I insist that those who debate me resort to SDA sources.

    Then maybe that is the strongest subject - in common agreement for discussion here since as a Baptist you say you found that subject was the most compelling.

    Let's do a thread. (not this thread but another one on the subject of the Eucharist).

    For this thread - I would like to get discussion from Catholics that were Baptists - or current Baptists thinking of turning to Catholicism.

    Might as well see what the best evidence is. Better to have it in the light of day - than hidden in a back room. One thing is for sure - resorting to "all name calling - all the time" solves nothing.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #1 BobRyan, May 17, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2013
  2. saturneptune

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    You posted a lot of information, but will only make one general comment on this subject. First of all, the direction is a shocker to me. Going from the sound doctrine of Baptist to the RCC seems like going the wrong way on a one way street. I know there are one or two on this board who have done that or are thinking about it.

    This is only speculation, as there is no Scripture to support going from one to the other, as I believe there are saved Catholics. What I cannot understand is someone who had years of sound doctrine taught to go to the RCC at an advanced age. Something is going on here that is amiss.

    It could be the Baptist side fault. Maybe the person who is moving is really saved, but was in a local church that was very Pharisee like and filled with gossips and hypocrites. Maybe the members were more worried about who is dancing and buying lottery tickets than they were telling others about Jesus. A few Baptist churches are very stoic, strict cold places. Maybe this individual ran into a Catholic and was invited to try something new, and found the church friendly. That is the only explanation I can think of, as comparing the doctrines, there is no comparison.

    The only other possibility is the person moving was never saved in the first place, which I think is unlikely compared to the above reason.

    I can only speak from personal experience. I grew up as a conservative Presbyterian and became a Baptist as an adult. Now, these two denominations are much closer in theology than either to the Catholic Church. The differences I found that made a difference were baptism, church autonomy (no hierarchy), and no creeds or chants. While some of the differences are minor, I feel more at home in a Baptist church. Most of the Baptist churches are friendlier than Presbyterian.
     
  3. preacher4truth

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    SN,

    As you well know there are many Baptists who are not sound in doctrine. There are those who become deceived by JW, Mormons, Eastern Mysticism & Catholicism and more. This isn't a shocker.

    - Blessings
     
  4. Thinkingstuff

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    When learning of my departure from the Baptist Church I was a member of for the Catholic Church one of my students suggested that maybe I over intellectualize things too much. Maybe you can chalk it up to that. ;)
     
  5. Yeshua1

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    That is why knowledge of the bible, facts of the Faith without application of those truths is a dangerous thing!
     
  6. BobRyan

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    I think a key point is reached here

    http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1985521&postcount=75

    Which explains just where the Baptist vs Catholic thinking transitions over to Catholic. It shows the details that have to be rejected and other points that must be embraced instead by the would-be Catholic Baptist right at that turning point.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Catholicism is a rejection of the completed work of Jesus Christ and total dependence upon personal good works for ultimate justification for entrance into heaven. That is why Catholics can believe that any devout person of any non-Christian religion can end up being in heaven without any conscious knowledge of the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

    Rome does not know, understand, teach or believe in the gospel of Jesus Christ any more or less than a devout muslim. Catholicism simply uses Biblical terms to teach the muslim, and Hindu view of salvation.
     
  8. Yeshua1

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    The SDA is in the same boat, as they profess saved by grace thru faith, yet add in their prophetess sayings/teachings. and have that God will judge them to see if kept the Law/sabbath right enough!
     
  9. Bro. James

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    Back to the original premise: A Baptist becoming a Catholic. This is basically a false situation. A true Baptist will not recant the Faith Once For All delivered to the Saints short of severe duress. He/she has passed from death unto life and is sealed by the Holy Spirit.

    Most of such apparent converts are products of repeat after me salvation which is no salvation at all. They are not born from above. The holy see has not a clue as to what that might mean.

    How soon we forget: True Baptists' spiritual forefathers were massacred at the behest of the holy see for refusing to baptize their infants. This mindset has not changed.

    Now what?

    Even so, come Lord Jesus.

    Bro. James
     
    #9 Bro. James, May 22, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2013
  10. Thomas Helwys

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    Primitive Baptists believe that, too.
     
    #10 Thomas Helwys, May 22, 2013
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  11. Thinkingstuff

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    Actually, it doesn't what happens is when a persons paradigm is challenged and evidence is found that doesn't support it a re-evaluation is done which may lead a person to a different conclusion. What you propose is "This would never happen if people stopped thinking for themselves and just go by what their told." And in that case what make your system any greater than the Fascist Governments? Unlike some groups I've been around God asks you to have faith not to park your brain in neutral. Which is why Paul was so effective. He didn't park his brain. He thought things out and as the primary missionary to the gentile world. And his works make up the Majority of the NT.
     
  12. Thinkingstuff

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    As is common with you all you have done is make an assertion based on your bias. Its like me saying all Baptist believe easy believe-ism. In the Baptist faith one can sin willy nilly without guilt because of their assurance of salvation. That is why you find no moral acting Baptist who lives according to the moral standard of Jesus Christ. That is why Baptist believe in OSAS so they don't have to fear their immorality. Now I know that isn't true. In fact I reject that is what Baptist believe but I say it to make a point that by your accusation you are doing that very thing regarding the Catholic faith. Catholics do not believe as you have suggested.
     
  13. BobRyan

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    That is the general principle.

    But that post I linked on this subject points to 12 specifics (most of which both Catholics and Baptists would admit to).

    And when the 12 points listed there are taken together they serve to remove the confusion on John 6.

    Which then reduces the element "of challenge" for the Baptist POV and may even raise that issue for the Catholic option.

    On the contrary. At that link I provide a number of objective points of evaluation for John 6 that simplify this task considerably. Simply being willing to dig into the exegetical elements of context and noting the progression as it builds through the book of John - results in much clearer picture- at least for the reader.

    than the ... "inquisition"??

    I agree - I am fully against the "don't think about it just say what I tell you to say" option.

    Recall that my purpose is not to convince you not to be a Catholic just as you are not trying to convince me to change my religion.

    My purpose is to simplify the issues raised in John 6. With that list of 12 obvious and objective points - I think both Catholic and Baptist (And SDA) readers will find a lot of clarity in John 6. They may all choose to remain wherever they are - but the study will have been instructive. And I think it leaves the Baptist with a clear avenue for resolving the questions without having to constantly resort to the dark-ages tried-and-tested method of just name-calling as "the" solution ( the way one or two have been doing on this board of late.)

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #13 BobRyan, May 22, 2013
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  14. The Biblicist

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    They certainly do. Rome clearly states that devout muslims or any other devout person without knowledge of Christ will be in heaven based solely upon their own good works. This is a complete repudiation of the Person and work of Jesus Christ.

    841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one merciful God, mankind's judge on that last day" - Catechism of the Catholic Church, 2nd Edition

    The Muslim's deny the Trinity, deny Jesus Christ as the one way to heaven, deny the gospel of Jesus Christ completely.

    Note the words "TOGETHER WITH US THEY ADORE THE ONE MERCIFUL GOD" - is a complete repudiation not only of the true Triune God which Christ says is essential for salvation (Jn. 17:3) but reveal the true essence of Catholic Salvation to be ultimately determined by good works period in spite of complete repudiation of Christ and His work by Muslims.
     
  15. Yeshua1

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    Doesn't the RCC teach that God will forgive those who are spiritual/religious like Muslims/Jews etc due to being "people of God", who were ingnorant of true RCC teaching, so God excuses them into heaven?
     
  16. Walter

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    Some of you on this board (like Saturneptune) claim that the Church teaches that all outside of the Church are destined to hell. Saturneptune claims the Church does not teach anything about 'separated brethren'. Then there are others of you that say the Church teaches universalism (such as the bolded part of Yeshua1 post). Neither claim is true. The Church teaches it is possible for some outside of the Christian faith to be saved, but the criteria will be the same as all others, namely, that they die in a state of Grace. This would mean that they did not knowingly (something God alone judges) reject Jesus Christ. If a person never understood that Jesus is the Son of God, and if he lived a life of humility seeking the Grace of God to the extent he knew, then it is possible that he would be part of that "other sheep not of this fold" that Jesus spoke. It is the uncertaintity and the number of ifs that compel us to evangelize, while not disparing of the rest of the world.
     
    #16 Walter, May 23, 2013
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  17. The Biblicist

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    First, the historical context of John 10 and "other sheep" refers to the Gentiles who are not of the present Jewish fold.

    Second, ignorance is not what condemns a person to hell, but sin.

    Third, if ignorance of the gospel provides a basis for utlimate salvation then by all means keep your mouth shut, and keep it a secret so all can be ultimately saved.

    Fourth, I quoted the Catholic authority for their position. Hence, they reject knowledge of the true God (Jn. 17:3) as essential for eternal life - Moselms reject the Trinity. Hence, they reject Jesus as the only way to heaven - Moselms, Hindu's etc. know of Jesus Christ but reject him as the only way to heaven.

    Fifth, Catholicism, like the Muslim or Hindu religion or Mormonism believe ultimately in justification by "good" works regardless - that is their religion. They have no relationship with Christ or His church or the Word of God any more than Hinduism or any other false religion as they all share the same false gospel.
     
    #17 The Biblicist, May 23, 2013
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  18. Walter

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    While it is true that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. If a person dies in the State of Grace they will be saved, period. Nothing you can argue will change that. Accepting that it is God's desire that all enter the kingdom of heaven, we do not know how the Father will draw some non-Christians to Himself. Is God's hand too short to save? Read carefully what the Church says about those who 'might' be saved among other religions:

    CCC843 The Catholic Church recognizes those in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all good and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."

    CCC847..."Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience--those too may achieve eternal salvation."
     
  19. Walter

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    Let me ask you, do you believe that unborn babies who die will go to hell because they never believed? Do severely mentally handicapped people go to hell because they cannot understand the significance of Christ's victory over death? Almost certainly you will be willing to make exceptions for these people. Now can you extend it to people who have never heard or understood the gospel but sought Him with a sincere heart and IS moved by Grace? I would have to ask you, is it really their choice not to believe, or is it their circumstances that prevent them from believing?

    I would be asking you these same questions had I remained a Baptist. Thanks!
     
  20. BobRyan

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    This is good logic and it makes perfect sense.

    But when making the point outside of your own denomination you have to back it up with scripture.

    And so - here it is.

    Romans 2 describes the case of someone with no access to the Word of God at all - that is born-again, that is under the new Covenant promise of the Law written in the mind and heart- that is considered by God to be a spiritual Jew (symbol for a saint - Israel in the NT) --- even though they remain in a state of ignorance.

    Romans 2
    13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.


    26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.


    And since you mention the "even if I were a Baptist I would ask you this question" then in that case I will add one more point - I will ask you to wear that Baptist hat and notice that this salvation in Romans 2 is Bible New Covenant salvation - "one Gospel" for all.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #20 BobRyan, May 23, 2013
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