Baptist but not a Calvinist?

So you say that you are Baptist but not a Calvinist.

How about looking at the five points of Calvinism and see how you fair? Tell us which ones you agree with and which ones you don’t.

• Total depravity.
• Unconditional election
• Limited Atonement
• Irresistible grace
• Perseverance of the saints

 

HP: You should not be so hasty with your remarks concerning my motives you know nothing about. This is not about oneupsmanship. This is about the truth. Seeking the truth and exposing error is not a waste of time. I believe it would do us both good to sharpen iron with iron.

Can we reason together?

 

HP: What kind of an answer is that? Why not tell us what you believe is right or wrong with the five points of Calvinism, where you agree or might not agree?

 

HP: There is one in every crowd! Just kidding.

Lets see. First I do not claim any denominational leaning. Secondly I will tell you upfront that I believe all five points are in error in the way they are understood and explained by Calvin and most every denomination that follows the Calvinistic directives. I might say close to the same thing in an area or two, but in reality it is not in accordance to that which I have heard espoused for over fifty years by those claiming to be Calvinist, Baptist, Lutheran, Presbyterian, etc.

Your turn:thumbs:

 

HP: I personally cannot point to where he laid out these five points as ‘five points.” I have not read all of Calvin’s writings, but I have read enough of his Institutes to believe that they are clearly established in them. Possibly others might have different knowledge.

The five points I have listed are such commonly called the Five Points of Calvinism. I thought it was a given that indeed we all would be in agreement to them being expressed by Calvin. If anyone one feels that they are incorrectly associated with Calvin in any way, I am sure willing to listen.

 

Let’s see if we are on the same page as to what is the meaning of 1, 3, and 5. I take it that 1. upholds the doctrine of original sin. 2. That Christ only atoned for the elect 5.OSAS. Is this how you see them?

You say that you disagree with 2 and 4. I see 2, as stating that man has nothing to do with effecting salvation in the least, and that there are no conditions man must fulfill in order to be saved, and 4. as stating that if you are indeed chosen by God to salvation, there is absolutely no possibility that you could resist His grace and be eternally lost.

How are we doing? Are we on the same page so far?

 

HP: What is it about limited atonement that you see as ‘possibly’ not Biblical? You seem to be at least a solid candidate for a five point Calvinist title, being just one brick short of a full load.

 

HP: I have some questions for you Bob. Would you mind explaining to the list what total depravity means to you, and the abilities or lack thereof you see man being born with or without? For instance. Many when holding to inherited depravity believe that man is a sinner from birth without any natural ability to obey God, described best as a dead log floating down a stream. How would you describe man as being 'totally depraved?'

 

HP: I believe I understand that and respect it. The nice thing about these forums is that if you desire to keep silent on an issue you are free to do so. There is much you can add to these discussions without sating which points you agree with or not. As you might have noticed, I am trying to be careful not to just assume that when one says ‘I believe in a certain point’ that they always mean the same thing another might by stating they agree with the same point.

In spite of the mass confusion that might exist on this issue, I believe there is much for each of us to gain if we will place our ideas under the scrutiny of Scripture, reason and logic, and experience. I believe it is good to test our opinions concerning Scripture with each other. It should develop a bit of humility in all of us.

 

HP: One question is, was the individual born that way or did he become that way? You say, ‘unable and unwilling to choose life.’ If this is true, then man has absolutely nothing to do with his salvation, for dead men have no wills and make no choices. God must be the sole initiator of salvation in sovereignly choosing who to save and who to damn, by simply granting abilities to some or witholding it from others. How can you deny a limited atonement, arbitrary grace as you put it? What influence can a dead man have upon God’s selection of who He grants the abilities to accept His offer? How can you deny a limited atonement if in fact God only grants to a limited amount of individuals the necessary means to salvation, while all others reamin dead without hope?