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Baptist Distinctives

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Tom Butler, Aug 25, 2008.

  1. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    You'll notice that Pinson did not include feeding the hungry or housing the homeless as part of what he called the "Baptist Recipe."

    The core distinctives were listed as:


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    The Baptist recipe includes several key beliefs or doctrines:

    --the Lordship of Jesus Christ

    --the Bible as the sole written authority for faith and practice

    --soul competency

    --salvation from sin and eternal death to forgiveness and eternal life only by faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior who is the grace gift of God

    --the priesthood of each believer and of all believers in Christ

    --believer’s baptism

    --baptism and the Lord’s Supper as wonderfully symbolic but not essential for salvation

    --church membership composed only of persons who have been born again

    --religious freedom and its corollary, the separation of church and state

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    He then identified secondary secondary practices and emphases that are a part of being Baptist but not the primary distinctives. You're rejecting the distinctives based on one of these related practices.

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    Built upon the foundation of these beliefs are certain practices or polities that are part of the Baptist recipe:

    --congregational church governance under the Lordship of Christ

    --the autonomy of churches

    --voluntary cooperation for various causes


    Closely related to these beliefs and practices are a number of emphases that characterize most Baptists:

    --evangelism

    --missions

    --Christian education

    --ministry

    --social concern

    This is what Jesus said on the topic of loving and helping our neighbors.

    Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    Mat 25:35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    Mat 25:36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
    Mat 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
    Mat 25:38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took [thee] in? or naked, and clothed [thee]?
    Mat 25:39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
    Mat 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.
     
  2. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Actually, all other considerations in place, I would vote to accept them.


    I'm delighted that you give importance to having the distinctives you mentioned. Then you render them meaningless by accepting them as members without further requirements.

    If you are sure we're wrong on some things, too, could you say what they are?
    Or do you believe you're right on everything you know about?

    There are some theological propositions that are settled in my mind.

    There are some which I believe are correct, but will say only that this is where I am on today on those matters. They deal mostly with eschatology, not soteriology. I have changed my mind on a number of other positions relating to how we as Baptists present the gospel, but up to that point was never uncertain.

    In today's modern culture, theological and sociological, uncertainty is a badge of honor. No one is wrong, just different, and besides, I could be the one who is wrong. But it ill behooves one who takes pride in uncertainty to label one who iis pretty sure he's right as arrogant.
     
  3. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    And I would say that I believe all denominations are doing the same thing. They all come with their various flaws and are trying imperfectly to reach the goal of becoming the church that Christ and His word teaches. Who is closest? I don't know but I see only benefit to Satan and his forces when Christians feel that their job is to compete against each other for perfection.

    There is definitely a place for denominations to debate and correct each other to change but we do so in brotherly love, not as competitors for supremacy. That was the purpose of the Jerusalem council of Acts 15 and other ecumenical councils.

    I am not a Baptist because I believe we are the closest to some abstract standard of perfection on a heavenly scoreboard based on a checklist of theologies. I am Baptist because God has placed me here to minister to Baptists and the world to make his name and will known.
     
  4. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I would say that denominations that are denying the Bible's teachings or changing them, and have leaders who deny the essentials of the faith but do nothing about these leaders are not trying at all to be the church Christ established. And I think there are a lot of them out there like this.

    I do not agree with competition among denominations but frankly, I don't see that. Those that claim to be perfect or claim to the be the true NT church are usually cultic or they are full-blown cults.
     
  5. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Yes, I agree that all denominations believe they are biblical in their doctrines and practices. I also believe that most have failed in their understanding of some doctrines to the extent that they do not qualify as a New Testament church. And Satan benefits when Christians regard gross heresy as just a difference of opinion and fail to challenge it.

    I do not consider as abstract the clear teaching of scripture. We may fall short of those biblical teachings (standards, if you will) but they are standards nonetheless--standards which to which you seem attach a low priority.

    Finally, your reason for being a baptist. To minister to Baptists and make his name and will known. I am grateful for your calling. Since it appears to exclude theology and doctrine as subjects for discussion, I'm curious as to what your ministry involves. I mean no sarcasm here, and if I've misread you, I hope you will set me straight.
     
  6. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Marcia and Gold Dragon,

    Both of you referred to competition among denominations, and both of you agree that it's not profitable.

    Except for defending the faith against error and engaging in a battle for Biblical truth, how are we competing against other denoms? I'm sure you both have specifics in mind, but I can't grasp them.

    Please elaborate.
     
  7. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    Satan benefits when the world sees the lack of unity (not uniformity) among Christians because Christ said that our unity shows the world that Christ is from God.

    As I said in my last post, there is a place for challenging heterodoxy and heteropraxy. At the community level that may look like the 1st ecumenical council of Jerusalem in Acts 15. At the personal level, it involves discipleship and possibly church discipline. But the attitude is always one of seeking unity in brotherly love.

    The reason I say abstract standard is because the concept of "New Testament Church" is an abstract standard. While Baptists may be closer to the "New Testament Church" in some ways, Pentecostals may be closer in others. I find churches that claim to be a "New Testament Church" really are using themselves as the standard for others to fall short of. Isn't that an aspect of the Pharisees that Jesus was warning us not to be like?

    I am all for orthodoxy and orthopraxy. But the problem is why we seek it. Do we seek it so that others and ourselves can become more orthodox? Or do we seek it so that we can claim superiority, resulting in disunity amongst Christians? I find that the motivation to seek orthodoxy is more often one that tries to justify that which we already believe or have been taught to believe while demonizing everyone else rather than becoming more orthodox ourselves.
     
    #47 Gold Dragon, Aug 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 30, 2008
  8. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Gold Dragon, I think we would not come off as so confrontational were we talking face to face. Since this is a debate forum, we debate, and thus seem to be in-your-face at times.


    I also wish we could have more unity among believers. It is a noble and worthy goal, but I believe an impossible one in this life. It was impossible among 1st-century Christians.

    In order to seek unity among believers, some have cast aside anything that divides us, including doctrine. I guess I'm asking, at what price are we willing to pay for unity. Somebody is going to have to give up something. Who will do it and what will it be?
     
  9. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    You are right about the face to face thing. I don't feel you have been particularly confrontational and I hope I haven't been either. We strongly disagree on the concept of "New Testament Church" and have done so in the past but I always enjoy them as civil disagreements with a brother who passionately wants baptist churches and I hope all churches to be more biblical. This we can easily agree on.

    And that is why Paul wrote Ephesians 4. Because it was so hard, he had to urge them to be tolerant, humble and loving in the midst of their disagreements and continue to strive for unity in the face of disunity. It is not just a worthy goal but a key pleading of Christ (John 17) and key teaching of the "New Testament Church" (Eph 4).

    Unity is not the same as uniformity. We can be united and yet have different doctrines just like most Baptists are united and have all sorts of various doctrines.
     
  10. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I think there is a sense in which we can join with other evangelical denominations on occasion, such as a community worship service or on a social issues such as opposing abortion or same-sex marriage. Such occasions are limited, in my opinion.

    It involves deciding which doctrines (or practices) are tests of fellowship and which are not. For instance, I can fellowship freely with those whose eschatology is different from mine. I am a Calvinist, but I have wonderful fellowship with my fellow church members, most of whom are not.

    Unity would be difficult if not impossible with those who teach works salvation and baptismal regeneration (or salvation dependent on baptism), who deny the deity of Christ.

    I guess all of us have a different list, and that in itself demonstrates the problem of achieving unity.
     
  11. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Unity can only be found in Doctrine:

    Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.


    Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
    Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
    Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
     
  12. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    I think it demonstrates the problem of having such lists. Why do we have these lists and why are some things on them and other things not? I'm not suggesting that there aren't doctrines that are more important than others. But do we really think about why they are more important to us and whether that importance is valid?
     
  13. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I hope we all would give careful consideration to those doctrines and/or practices which we deem important, and whether differences on those doctrines would affect our fellowship with others.

    At the same time, were I to ask you about eschatology or ecclesiology being a test of fellowship, I suspect you would say no. Aha, you do have a list after all, with at least two items on it.

    To be sure, I doubt if anybody goes around with such a literal list in his pocket, but most of us have made judgments about the basis of our fellowship with others, particularly non-Baptists.
     
  14. Gold Dragon

    Gold Dragon Well-Known Member

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    You are correct, I have a list. My point wasn't that I don't have one, but that these lists themselves are part of the problem of lack of unity, even mine. They need to be constantly re-evaluated because to be honest, many of them have very poor basis for being there, even the ones on my list.

    The doctrines on our lists may have very good scriptural reasons for being valid doctrines, but they may also have very poor reasons (often personal, historical or traditional) for being disfellowshipping doctrines. Just because someone is wrong doesn't mean you should disfellowship them.
     
  15. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    There is certainly a core set of beliefs which determines whether or not someone is a Christian and the diety of Christ is absolutely a core belief. However, most of the things that are debated around here are not. If you believe that your subset of Baptists are the only persons who will go to heaven then your attitude is appropriate. If not, you're putting yourself above God and rejecting those He accepts. That's not a good place to be.
     
  16. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I agree completely. The problem is not over rejecting those whom God has accepted. The problem is over figuring out who they are, if they are members of congregations who teach works salvation, deny the Trinity, practice Mariolatry, etc. God can save even those who believe error or whose churches teach error.
    But it is difficult to identify them as long as they remain in those churches.

    Fellowship is a different animal, however. It works both ways. There's a good reason my Presbyterian brothers don't go to my Baptist church on Sundays. Or my Methodist friends. They don't want to. It seems to me that if our common salvation was all that was required for fellowship, then we should all gather at the same place every Sunday. Why aren't they willing?

    By the same token, there's a good reason we head for our Baptist church on Sunday and not somewhere else. Because the basis for our fellowship is more than our common salvation. Because the brothers and sisters in my church are as close to unified as any groups of Christians is ever going to get. And that is something that is to be cherished.
     
  17. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

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    Actually, I feel perfectly fine at a Presbyterian Church. One of the most awesome, spiritual times I have had in my life (with the exception of one to one witnessing), was the "Together for the Gospel" conference, this past April. I don't think there were ten people their whose beliefs were identical to mine: I know not a single speaker had beliefs that matched mine perfectly. Yet all of this paled...

    We are joined together by the Gospel itself, I believe. In fact, I get along far better with a Reformed Presbyterian, than I generally do with a non-reformed Southern Baptists, even though I am SB, and attend a SBC church.
     
  18. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    I have spoken or sung in a number of Presbyterian, Methodist, Cumberland Presbyterian, Disciples of Christ and even a Seventh-Day Adventist Church. I felt just fine, too. I say this to show that I'm not completely a right-wing redneck isolationist.

    I'm familiar with Together for the Gospel. I think I'd enjoy such a conference, as well. Dr. Mohler, C. J. Mahaney and company are solidly Trinitarian, solidly biblical in their soteriology, and I doubt if you would find better preaching anywhere.

    That said, after a brief visit to each of those churches I mentioned, I returned to my own church. I don't think the outcome of the Together for the Gospel was the formation of a new denomination centered solely on the Gospel. Everybody went back to their own churches.

    Such attempts at Christian unity are admirable. Most such attempts, however, are temporary at best, and often come across as contrived. Some subjects are simply off-limits to preaching, because to preach on those subjects would damage the unity. One can imagine what they are.
     
  19. rdwhite

    rdwhite New Member

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    Hey Tom, I've been gone for a couple of weeks with little access to get online. I have completely missed out on being able to participate in this interesting thread, but I do appreciate you posting the distinctives.

    I do not remember what originally sparked this thread, but I think the point has been well demonstrated that the term Baptist has become diffused and many people who attend Baptist churches today do not know what it means to be baptist or what a baptist is supposed to believe. I cannot walk into any Baptist church and know what that particular group of people believe, without getting to know the pastor and people.

    I believe that many baptist churches in an effort to be successful according to the measure of men (i.e. statistics, membership #s and $s), have allowed many non-baptists to join their churches and have set aside those doctrines that in times past made us distinct from other churches. We have, to a degree, set aside evangelism and discipleship for sheep rustling. Hence, Baptists for all practical purposes (yes I am intentionally making a generalization) are no longer distinct in their beliefs, but are diverse and at times polar opposites.
     
  20. Tom Butler

    Tom Butler New Member

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    Sadly, you are correct. I have a relative who was not Baptist, but quite conservative, and a real student of the scriptures. He used to travel a lot, and when he was on the road, he knew that he could find some solid preaching and worship at a Baptist church. As the years went by, the found out that it wasn't necessarily true any more.

    I think we can blame part of it on the lack of emphasis on historic Baptist doctrines from the pulpit. In some cases, doctrine is actually de-emphasized, because doctrine divides, you know.

    So Baptists, once known as the People of the Book, have lost that title. Except for the People of the Book here on the Baptist Board, obviously.
     
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