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Baptist Eschatology

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Bill Brown, Jul 5, 2007.

  1. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    I want to remind many of you who are championing Amill that we have NO written record for approximately 1000 years for EITHER side of this issue. Therefore: to make the claim that the ENTIRE church believed the Amil position until Darby (or whomever) is patently false since it cannot be proven unequivicably.

    The true church was in hiding for lo those many centuries. They were not writing anything. They were more concerned with survival and evangelism.

    As a matter of fact, MOST if not ALL of the written record for those centuries is Catholic; therefore, in order for you to support your claim you must rely on the Roman or Greek Catholic church's doctrine. Amil is NOT Baptist. It is Catholic.
     
  2. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Try telling that to the Primitive, Old Regular, United and many others.

    Augustine believed the millennium started with Christ. He quotes Matt. 12:28, Luke 10:9 and Luke 11:20 to show that Christ told people the kingdom had already started. This kingdom is really the city of God's people brought to a higher perfection by Christ. In this more perfected state, it will continue until Christ returns.
     
    #42 Brother Bob, Jul 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2007
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother Av1611jim -- Preach it! :thumbs:
     
  4. av1611jim

    av1611jim New Member

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    I just did that and you PROVED it by referring to Augustine.:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

    City of God is Catholic doctrine to this day. How does it feel to be Baptholic?
     
  5. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Question;
    1. If you don't know what happened for over a 1000 years, then why are posting that you do. doos you or don't you know????

    It has been shown that Baptists in America find their origins in Colonial and some English Puritanism. English Baptists continually avowed allegiance to the Protestant Reformation, their early leaders all being Puritans. The Anabaptism of the Continent, although holding some clear Baptistic principles, were not the fathers of modern Baptists (neither in America directly nor via Britain); nor were they without roots in Roman Catholicism themselves. Is it true, who knows, if true you just made fun of your forefather?

    Laugh all you want while you hold on to Jewish religion who rejected Christ. Like it or not, the Catholics did keep a history of which it seems the Baptist did not. Also, you forgot to tell John Calvin and the Calvinist.
    (On Chiliasm / Millenarianism)
    "Though millenialism was supressed by the early church, it was nevertheless from time to time revived by heretical sects. " (Schaff's History, pg. 299)

    You can trace your belief back to John Darby and maybe a litte farther.

    The vain worldly expectation that the Messiah would establish a literal kingdom caused the Jews to reject him, and his spiritual kingdom. And caused them to kill Him.

    Amillennialism has been the predominate philosophy of the church from its inception. According to Louis Berkhof,(Louis Berkhof (1873 - 1957) was a Reformedsystematic theologian, then we got you) "Some premillennialists have spoken of Amillennialism as a new view and as one of the most recent novelties, but this is certainly not in accord with the testimony of history. The name is indeed new, but the view to which it is applied is as old as Christianity. It had at least as many advocates as Chiliasm among the Church Fathers of the second and third centuries, supposed to have been the heyday of Chiliasm. It has ever since been the view most widely accepted, is the only view that is either expressed or implied in the great historical Confessions of the Church, and has always been the prevalent view in Reformed circles"

    John Calvin (1536)
    "But a little later there followed the chiliasts, who limited the reign of Christ to a thousand years. Now their fiction is too childish either to need or to be worth a refutation. And the Apocalypse, from which they undoubtedly drew a pretext for their error does not support them. For the number "one thousand" (Rev. 20:4) does not apply to the eternal blessedness of the church but only to the various disturbances that awaited the church, while still toiling on earth."
    "For when we apply to it the measure of our own understanding, what can we conceive that is not gross and earthly? So it happens that like beasts our senses attract us to what appeals to our flesh, and we grasp at what is at hand. So we see that the Chialists (i.e. those who believed that Christ would reign on earth for a thousand years) fell into a like error. Jesus intended to banish from the disciples' minds a false impression regarding the earthly kingdom: for that, as He points out in a few words, consists of the preaching of the Gospel. They have no cause therefore to dream of wealth, luxury, power in the world or any other earthly thing when they hear that Christ is reigning when He subdues the world to Himself by the preaching of the Gospel. It follows from this that His reign is spiritual and not after the pattern of this world." - Comm. on Acts 1:8

    I tell you the same thing I told someone else, the Catholics had some things right. You can't even prove that your roots don't go back to St. Augustine.

    II. Historical review of millennial thinking in Christian theology.
    A. Early church (c. 100-250) - millennium not emphasized. Variety of views.

    B. Early reaction to view of earthly millennium.

    1. Origen (c. 185-254) attributed such thinking to heretic, Cerinthus

    2. Montanist heresy (c.175) had excesses of earthly millennial views.

    3. Rampant speculation to calculate end time.

    C. Augustine (354-430) rejected his previous earthly millennial position and interpreted

    "1000 years" of Rev. 20 as symbolic of entire period from first coming of Christ to

    second coming of Christ.

    1. Council of Ephesus (431) condemned earthly millennium interpretation as heretical

    superstition.

    2. Became orthodox view of Church for centuries.

    D. Reformation (sixteenth century) - Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Anabaptists accepted symbolic

    interpretation of "1000 years." Regarded Catholic Pope as Antichrist.

    E. Seventeenth - nineteenth centuries - gradually revived earthly millennium view.

    F. Nineteenth & twentieth centuries.

    1. J.N. Darby (Plymouth Brethren), followed by D.L. Moody, C.I. Scofield, H.A. Ironside

    (Dallas Theological Sem.), developed theological system of Dispensationalism

    incorporating earthly millennium and pre-tribulation rapture of Church. Became a

    primarily American theological phenomenon.

    2. Majority of theological community (Post-millennial and Amillennial) has regarded

    Dispensationalism as a modernist aberrational (disorder of the mind) interpretation.

    I do not know if this is true historical fact or not.
     
    #45 Brother Bob, Jul 15, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 15, 2007
  6. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    av1611jim, your opening statement, here, is simply not true.

    (Your second statement is absolutely true, BTW.)

    We don't have a lot of written records, for many years granted. But there are bits and pieces, and the records of the church fathers' writings, especially prior to Constantine (and the subsequent ascendency of the Roman Church) and snippets thereafter, including some who did believe in all various ways, from preterism to millenialism, during this time. But please don't confuse and confute the lack of a plethora of evidence with no evidence.

    And the A-Millenail position can be fully traced to and through Augustine to Origen, BTW, but it certainly did not arise among Baptists, per se, as you have said.

    Ed
     
  7. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Bob, for now the third time, I am repeating myself.

    I have shown this to be incorrect, twice before, and at best, assumptions and generalizations, yet you keep posting this list (including the pejorative 'slam' about dispensationalism), whenever anyone says something about the subject.

    AND even admitting you do not know if it is true historical fact, no less.

    What gives?

    Ed
     
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    First, they never seem to say anything nice to me about the subject, auto brings out the worst in me. That "thorn" we been discussing I guess...........:)

    Well Ed; I have been researching and so far it has proved out to be more true than not. I am just like you, I have to depend on the writings of others in those days of bits and peices. This is one side of the argument, as you posted there is another side. I have not told you that you have no or very little proof, for I know thats all you can get. You in fact, have not proved it to be untrue, just that there were views believing in the Mill, even though they seemed to of been surpressed, for many many years.

    The Historical article seems to be true to the best I can research. As far as the slur against about dispensationalism, I have not been able to prove it to be completely true. It is not my slam, BTW. IMO

    BTW, thanks for explaining to Jim some of the truths. I will try not to post the slam again......:) The rest on the Historical, seems to be true. If you like, I would be willing to read any material showing what is listed in the Historical article to be wrong!
     
    #48 Brother Bob, Jul 15, 2007
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  9. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    If you believe Jesus only came once...He ain't coming back!
     
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    You have to be on your toes or the Web will get you.......... :laugh: :laugh:

    Look like the least you could do is wish me a Happy Birthday seeing I am still around at 68 today!
     
  11. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    One of the first Baptist pastors in England, Hanserd Knollys, preached the millenium. [see post #33].
     
  12. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Didn't know about your birthday as I was not around 68 years ago. But a happy anniversary of your birhtday, 68 times over.

    Ed
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Brother Bob,

    In the first of nineteen centuries of church history after Calvary, there was no positional or label name of millennial among Christians. Although, in the first of three centuries of Early Church, were mixed premills and amills. There were no clear real position on millennial, what they were believed.

    Many claim that, St. Augustine originals amillennialism in 3rd Century. Premillennialism was dead for a long time.

    That was not true. There were plenty of amills long before Augustine. He was not first person invented amillennialism.

    The basic thing that, Early Church believed in general judgment, one future coming of Christ, looking forward reign with Christ. There were flaws within Early Church beliefs on millennium. Fact that, they have no name for position of millennium.

    Even, Early Church never use term, "rapture" relates with eschatology. They understood that Christians shall be caught up in the air to meet Christ at His coming.

    Also, early Christians understood word, 'rapture' of modern dictionary means, highly emotion or exciting. That word have do nothing with caught up.

    Matthew Henry Commentary wrote 'rapture' speaks of exciting with praise. Not a single word 'rapture' in his commentary, which relates with second coming or eschatology. I own Matthew Henry Commentary at home.

    Also, in the first of nineteen centuries, Church was not nut on millennium issue, because they believed everything all will be end, then enter into eternality with Christ.

    Till 19th Century, John Darby was the first person taught that, there is distinction of Church and Israel, that how dispensationalism was born.

    Early Church understoods the true Israel of God is Church. None of them claiming it is so called, "Replacement Theology". Till early 20th Century, premills being accuse them by called them, 'Replacement Theology'.

    Interesting, millennial was born around 1830, many cults were appeared like, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventist, Armstrong, etc. Even, pretribulationism was born during that period.

    While in that period in America. Pretribulationism was not yet exist there. Darby came and visited America 6 times, trying to spreading his new doctrine of pretribulationism. By in year 1878 Nigara Bible Conference, pretribulationism was introduced to pastors, teachers, and evangelists. Many were adopt it, and like it. Then, pretribulationism became popular at turn of the 20th Century. Thanked to C.I. Scofield.

    While at the same time, premillennialism became popular in the late 19th Century, as dispensationalism developed same time.

    Surprisely, Jews criticize at premills, called them, anit-semitic. Because, premills teaching that rapture is for "Church" only, while Jews are stay on earth to face great tribulation. Church flying home as "sweet home" while Jews facing terrible tough times same time. Premills makde Jews looks bad. I agree.

    In my mind, when rapture occurs, the Church(Gentiles) flying in the sky and saying to Jews on earth, "I am going home, and you stay here suffering, HA! HA!" That is a insult or blant.

    Bible doesn't teach us there is dividied within the Body of Church. It teaches us, there is unity body of Christ as one. Both Jews and Gentiles are unity become one in Christ through Calvary.

    Now, Jews and Gentiles Christians are reigning with Christ in heaven, because Christ was the firstfruit of resurrection, so, therefore, their souls are now in heaven with Christ. Also, at second advent, Jews and Gentiles Christians will continue reigning with Christ on new earth forever and ever.

    bob,

    Yes, kingdom of God/heaven is spiritual. Christ already bring kingdom to Israel from above 2000 years, it is not observation, it is within them- spiritually. Kingdom, itself is the gospel. Now, we are preaching the kingdom to the world. Many saints who already died, are now reigning with Christ in heaven. I believe there are many activities in heaven. Even, after second advent, there will be activities on new earth too.

    I hope that you understand clear what I actual believe according what the Bible teaching.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I saw your post and I believe it said in the 18th Century, which pretty well agrees with what we are saying. If I read it right.
     
    #54 Brother Bob, Jul 15, 2007
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  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Deafposttrib;
    I must say we are very close, with the exception of where and what the new earth is. It would be nice, if we were close and could really discuss these events. Please don't forget, that when Christ arose, that many of the bodies of the saints arose, after He did and went into that Holy City.

    Yes, I believe there are people in Heaven as we speak, and the souls of all that died in the Lord, are with Jesus at "rest", as Apostle Paul spoke of. Glad to find someone as close to my belief, as you are. I know that not too many on here believe as I do, but I know of some. It helps to hear that the early church believed these things, and do you have some writings to support this? One thing I have learned for sure on BB, we have Ed; and we need to have written support. Catholic support won't help, when it comes to Jim though.....:)

    BBob,

    We do differ here. I believe that part of the souls in Heaven, but at rest in Jesus. I believe when Christ was the firstfruits, that many of the Bodies of the saints arose after He did, and went to Heaven and are with Christ now. (If that was not a resurrection, I don't know what a resurrection is). The second advent I believe Jesus will come in the air, and all the saved will meet Him in the air both Jew and Gentile, and will everly be with Him. There will be silence in Heaven for space of the half hour, and I believe the 7 vials of the wrath of God will then be poured out on this earth. Then the seventh trumpet will sound and the seventh vial will be poured out upon this earth, and Heaven will speak and say it is finished. I believe then the earth will burn up with a fervant heat and pass away. We the saved will then be in Heaven for eternity, and sing a new song, I have been redeemed both soul and body. I believe very much as you say the early church believed and I am very glad to hear the early church believed that way. I would like to know some material I could read to support that. I believe the church is "one", both Jew and Gentile and that the name of Jesus is the only name whereby a man can be saved. I know it leaves the unbelieving Jews in a terrible condition, but the Kingdom has already come and they refused the kingdom and the Messiah. "except you believe I am He you shall die in your sins". How do you get around that one Deaf, when it comes to the Jews?
     
    #55 Brother Bob, Jul 15, 2007
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  16. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    After I had my heart and carotid surgery, they would not let me drive an auto, and told me to - "Walk awhile, and get more exercise!" :laugh:

    Guess they thought driving brought out the worst in me, too. [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Ed
     
    #56 EdSutton, Jul 15, 2007
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  17. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    As I was rereading this thread, I started reading a bit more closely. With all respect, skypair, what you have described above is not a tenet of a-millenialism, but is a tenet of post-millenialism.

    Ed
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Brother Bob: //One thing I have learned for sure on BB,
    we have Ed; and we need to have written support. //

    Actually, Sir* Brother Brother Bob: we at BB have two Eds.
    As my British friends say:
    //Two 'eds are better than one// :)

    *68 year old gentlemen get a 'sir'
    because 68>63 like me.
     
  19. Jerome

    Jerome Well-Known Member
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    You have been saying that early Baptists did not believe in the Millenium, correct?
    The post which I linked to was post #33, which quotes a prominent first generation (17th century) English Baptist pastor teaching the following:
    "He will set up his Davidical Kingdom on Earth"
    "They shall Reign with Christ a thousand years, and that on earth"
    "After the Saints deceased are raised, and have lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years, shall be the general Resurrection"
     
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Yes, and even at that seems it took almost 1700 years, wonder why?
     
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