Baptist minister questions penal substitutionary atonement

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Matt Black, Oct 15, 2004.

  1. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    Link:- http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/80256E4E00384246/httpPublicPages/
    B9CB84AF06B264EC80256F2D00544233?opendocument (can a mod tidy that up for me please - I'm useless at this URL thingy [​IMG] )

    How vital is PSA to our doctrine? Should Steve Chalke be booted out of the EA and from the Baptist Union of Great Britain? Is PSA the ONLY model of the Cross, or are other models alluded to by Chalke eg: Christus Victor important too?

    Over to you!

    Yours in Christ

    Matt

    [ October 19, 2004, 09:26 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]
     
  2. Craigbythesea

    Craigbythesea
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    The PSA model of the Cross does not necessarily imply a vengeful God, and the theologians who believe that it does not refer to the expiation of the guilt of our sins rather than the propitiation of God because of our sins.

    [​IMG]
     
  3. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    I don't have a problem with PSA alone not being an adequate theological portrayal of the cross eg: Christus Victor et al, but Chalke seems to be going beyond that in denying PSA, based on the tired old objections of Socinius Faustus. So, should old Chalky be chucked out? I hope not, because I've always quite liked him, although I think he's being a complete muppet on this issue

    Yours in Christ

    Matt

    Yours
     
  4. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    Here's a link to what Steve is actually saying, rather than what people say he's saying:-

    http://www.church.co.uk/

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  5. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    I am always a little gun-shy of authors who want a large following to get their teaching/books on a "new" Jesus.
     
  6. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    But what do you think of the issues?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  7. James_Newman

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    Talks, seminars, discussions – a positive, participatory, learning party
    Sign up for £20 per day or save money with all 3 days for just £50
     
  8. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    Yes, but what about the issues?!! Is PSA vital?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  9. Matt Black

    Matt Black
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    Sorry for double post, but just to clarify (or muddy the waters further!), there's Substitutionary Atonement and then there's Penal Substitutionary Atonement:-

    1) Sin results in us not being in perfect relationship with God
    2) Atonement is a process by which the effects of sin are removed making a perfect relationship with God possible.
    3) On the Cross Christ did something that was Atoning, and he did it in our place. This is basically Substitutionary Atonement.
    4) Penal SA says that the effect of sin that seperates us from God is likened to a penalty imposed by a court of law, with God as the judge imposing the penalty (death), and Christ paying it in our place.

    Steve seems to be rejecting #4 (PSA) but not necessarily #1, #2 and #3, including SA

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  10. James_Newman

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    Most people like to think that they are basically good people. People do not like to hear that they are miserable wretches in need of salvation. They are willing to pay for more comfortable theology. Call it 'itching ears', whatever. I don't know much about theology, but I know that without the shed blood of Christ covering your sins, you are lost. I think number 4 above is a fairly adequate analogy to what happened on the cross.

    Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

    2Cor 5
    18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
    19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
    21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    If you don't believe you deserve to die for your sins, how can you believe that Christ has redeemed you?
     
  11. av1611jim

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    If this fellow rejects the Judgement of God against our (personal) sin by Christ's substitutionary death on the cross, then it appears that he is lost.
    Jesus took my place on that cross.
    He was penalized for my sin. He was judged in my place.
    As I see it, if you reject this, you are lost.
    One must see his need before he can avail himself of the remedy.
    In His service;
    Jim
     
  12. av1611jim

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    I went to the link. Read what was available. Only the first chapter. Methinks the fellow wants $$$ 'cuz you can't get any more than ch.1.

    He seems to be saying that he alone has found the Lost Message of Jesus. Sounds a lot like J. Smith to me.
    In His service;
    Jim
     
  13. DavidFWhite3

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    I did a major paper on this subject while in seminary. One thing I learned is that Substitutionary Penal Atonement is one of several theories that have been around for seventeen hundred years. I came to one important conclusion. The issue really isn't the matter of substitution or even punishment. What matters is what the crucifixion actually changes. Does it change God's attitude toward us, meaning his demand for punishment is now met, so he can forgive us? Or does it mean that our attitude toward God has changed, so we can now fully receive his love and forgiveness, and the changed life that comes with it? I really think Jesus died to change our attitude toward God, not the other way around. Jesus did not have to die for God to be able to forgive us. Jesus had to die so we might be receptive of that forgiveness.

    But it is not an easy thing to simply see some kind of formula at work. The death of Jesus is more comprehensive than any formula can explain. It does not allow us to ask the important questions, one being, "What in the world was Jesus doing that caused the rich and powerful to want him dead? If we explain the death of Jesus as simply the carrying out of some plan without considering the actual historical context, we can miss a lot of the story, and therefore its deepest meaning. Good topic.

    Dave
     
  14. Matt Black

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    What about the accusation that Chalke levels that the penal element of PSA amounts to some form of 'cosmic child abuse' (leaving aside the point that Jesus was a 'consenting adult'?

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  15. James_Newman

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    If God forgave us of our sin without requiring a sacrifice, He would be contradicting His law. He is a just God, and His justice demanded a sacrifice. Christ was that sacrifice. Without the blood, there is no forgiveness.
     
  16. Matt Black

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    Have to disagree with that last point. The OT is littered with examples of God seeking out others first, BEFORE any sacrifice is offered:-

    Noah - sacrifice after the flood, not before

    Abraham - I forget when the near sacrificing of Isaac was, but it wasn't at the beginning of the story.

    Isaiah - God 'Come over here, sonny' Isaiah 'Get away from me, cos I am a sinful man'

    Moses - God 'Wooosh....' Moses 'Eh?' God 'C'mon son, take off your shoes, I'm God...remember?'

    How about at the beginning of Aaron's ministry?


    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The the Lord's anger burned against Moses, and he said, "What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and his heart will be glad when he sees you.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Exodus 4:14

    So it appears that not only was Aaron the second string batsman, he wasn't even consulted about whether he wanted to be in the Lord's enclosure, so to speak. Show me where the sacrifice is there, then.


    Surely the best explanation of the cross is going to be a mixture of different theories of atonement.

    Indeed, there are at least 9 different theories, namely,

    The Ransom-to-Satan/ Christus Victor theory

    The Re-capitulation theory

    The Satisfaction Theory (of Anselm - commercial theory)

    The Moral Influence Theory

    The Example Theory

    The Governmental Theory

    The Mystical Theory

    The Theory of Vicarious Repentance

    and, presumably, the Penal Substitutional Atonement theory.

    Chalky may have been wrong in rejecting the last, but he certainly ain't wrong in exploring the others

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     

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