Baptist Pastor Dismayed by Worldliness of New Calvinist Conferences

Watts and Calvin, I suppose.:love2:

 

I wasn't going to post in this thread, but I cant help myself. I am in my 50's and I love most of the praise and worship, how can you judge what music does to another persons heart, just because it's not your cup of tea, If you don't like don't listen but don't judge me because me because I do.
We have a real nice lady in our church she is always asking me how can you listen to that, put on the bluegrass and shes dancing down the aisles, I just shake my head. maybe you should read psalms 150 and then praise God with your whole HEART.

 

Ironic MacArthur is accused of the very things he accuses others of in Fools Gold :laugh:

 

I'll say it. The other stuff is not of God.

Masters is exactly right in his appraisal. The package in which we present the Gospel is just as important as the Gospel itself. I've come through RLDS and tongues-talking Charismania and am now a Calvinist, thanks to the writings of Paul, and I can say that you folks who are defending the "new Calvinism" haven't a clue of what you're talking about.

 

Just shows that history repeats itself and few are aware that the hymns they like today from the past were often met with resistance by people in the church at one time.

So is there really anything new under the sun?

 

These arguments have been regurgitated for too long. Either give some substantial quotes and references of these 2 examples or withdraw them. I have heard these in debates and when I ask for the supporting quotes from contemporaries of Watts, Calvin or Luther that say what you are ... guess what I get in response? ............. Hear that silence?

 

I know Dr. Masters. I am in regular communication with the staff on that church. His ministry is incredibly blessed of God but carried on very quietly and without fanfare and publicity. He has good spiritual wisdom and his comments on the modern 'worship' scene are right on.

The evangelical church is indeed becoming more and more a reflection of the world. I am reminded of an incident in the life of A.W. Tozer. A speaker at a conference was talking about meeting the needs of the world around us and presenting the gospel in a 'relevant fashion'. He went on to say, "The church must catch the spirit of the age if it is going to be used of God." At this point Tozer could take it no more (he was sitting on the platform behind the speaker), and he stood to his feet and interrupted the man by saying, "What you just heard is wrong. The church is to CORRECT the spirit of the age if it is going to be used of God." And then he sat back down.

We need more men of that stature.

 

Jesus taught the same thing and did it. The question now is what are we doing about it?

 

Any time there are changes there are supporters and detractors. It is as old as man. It has been a long time since I have studied such things and do not give sermons on it. It is of almost no importance so I give it no study today.

You cannot put new wine in old wine skins.

The point was not about Calvin, Luther, and Watts but about some of the hymns.

One such hymn I remember is "It came Upon A Midnight Clear".

 

Aaron, I usually find myself agreeing with you, but in this instance, I'm sad to say that you are the one who doesn't have a clue what you are talking about. You say it's not of God. I say, "prove it". Please tell me exactly exactly is ungodly along with scripture showing me it is.

 

I respect Dr. Masters, but in this case I believe he is terribly off base. I have experience in many, many different types of worship services....traditional and contemporary. I really don't care about the style....just give me solid lyrics. However, to lump in the music that is now being used in what is being called the "new calvinist" circles along with what is going on in the typical "modern worship" circles, is not fair and it is just plain unkind. In fact, our music minister at our church, just attended the Worship God conference that was put on by Sovereign Grace Ministries. He has made several comments that what he had learned there was contrary to what he had been taught at Willow Creek and other conferences concerning worship.....and he is not a calvinist himself. In fact, he said what he learned was just the opposite. I don't think Dr. Master's has done enough homework in checking out exactly what is going on.

 

It's not commended in the Scriptures. When Paul said, "Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs," he left out dithyrambs, paeans and a host of other carnal styles that do not commend themselves to Christian demeanor.

Anyway, I've argued this enough to know that no matter what I present, it will not satisfy those who seek some kind of "feelin'" when they're worshipping.

 

Aaron....brother....please give me an example. It sounds quite arrogant to assume you know people's motives in only wanting to seek a "feelin". What kind of feeling do you think these folks are looking for? Are you saying that we should sing praise to the Lord devoid of any emotion? Please give me an example of what you are talking about instead of your broad sweeping accusations.

 

I did. Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs as opposed to carnal forms.

I know what music is, and its meaning. So do movie producers who spend millions on it to manipulate the emotions of their audiences, and so do those who spend millions purchasing it. The only ones who seem willingly ignorant of the facts are Christians.

An ecstatic feeling.

Yeah. That's what I'm saying. (Rolls eyes)

The difference between the Jesus Freaks and Baptists in the 60's. In Paul's day, the difference between hymns and dithyrambs, spiritual songs and paeans.

 

I am not a very emotional person but I get very excited when I hear God praised by His people.

Psalm 150:1-6 Praise the Lord! Praise God in His sanctuary; Praise Him in His mighty expanse. Praise Him for His mighty deeds; Praise Him according to His excellent greatness. Praise Him with trumpet sound; Praise Him with harp and lyre. Praise Him with timbrel and dancing; Praise Him with stringed instruments and pipe. Praise Him with loud cymbals; Praise Him with resounding cymbals. Let everything that has breath praise the Lord. Praise the Lord!

 

Aaron, when I asked for an example, I was meaning an example of song or song's done at these "new calvinist conferences" that are simply sung in order to appeal to the flesh. Give me a song and an example of when this has happened. I find it amazing how you are able to read these peoples motives. What exactly about the music you are criticizing disqualifies it from being a "spiritual song"?
I'm asking this because I've been to several of these conferences...one of them was nothing but hymns (T4G). I've also been in worship services in the past where I do feel like it was nothing but emotional manipulation....so I know what you mean there. But I've not sensed this at any of the conferences I've been to (T4G and DG) and at the few occassions that I've gone to a Sovereign Grace Ministries church. Now I admit that some of these songs may have a similar tune to your typical CCM drivel, but they are much different in the sense that the songs sung are very gospel-driven and God centered. You won't here songs that talk about all the great things we do for God, but rather songs about who our God is. Aaron, I'm not saying that you need to enjoy the style. I don't enjoy much some of the high-church music sung only to an organ, but I can still appreciate it and rejoice in the God-centeredness of the lyrics. I myself, hate most CCM and most modern worship songs. So much of it is very man-centered and lack any depth lyrically. However, I think we need to be careful in painting all modern worship music with a broad brush.

 

Oh, boy. Here we go again.

I can do that, too.

Psa 66:15 I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats.

 

Collin Hansen described "sensation-stirring, high-decibel, [heavily] rhythmic, thunderous music, thousands of raised hands, Christian hip-hop and rap. . . " at these conferences.

There's no need to attend to know what's being described.

Not only that, nothing I say will satisfy you. You've been to a conference or two and had positive experiences. I'm not arguing about that.

My point was to show that Masters' issue with them is more than just skin deep and not easily dismissed.

 

Wow, Hansen's description sounds just purely evil! Seriously, is that all you've got? I've got that book....I'll have to check it out. Actually, I'm not a big fan of hip-hop (it's a style issue), but I've got a CD by a guy named Shai Linne who's lyrics are more bible-saturated and gospel centered than 98% of hymns in the Trinity hymnal...not my favorite style of music by a long shot, but I still must say I greatly appreciate what this young man is doing. I wouldn't prefer it for worship music, because I'm not of that culture, but I'm sure if it causes some to sing truth from their heart, then it is pleasing to God.

 

Like I said, nothing I say will satisfy you, but not because you have any Scriptural standing for your view, but because you love your view.