Baptist Purgatory - Part Two

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by DeafPosttrib, Apr 13, 2005.

  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib
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    To be continued...

    I would like this topic to be discuss or debate with friendly, and respect eash other, no attack, criticize, blunt, slander words at each other. Let's sticky on God's Word with the truths and sound doctrine.

    av1611jim said:
    recently at the topic -'Baptist Purgatory' at Fundamental Baptist forum.

    Amen. Right.

    But, yet you agree with Faust and others teaching that a Christian shall cast into the hell for a temporary time, as they citied or quote from Matt. 25:30, etc.

    They have problems with Matt. 7:21-23; Matt. 25:30, 41, etc. These do not saying that a person shall be released out of the everlasting fire beyond the judgement day. Because Matt. 7:21-23; 25:14-30; 31-46, all of these are speak of great white throne, the only one future judgement day at Christ's coming, no other else. No way you can prove them are speak of temporary, because Christ never saying it. Your logical of thse are flaw and fallacy.

    Also, Rev. 20:2-7 speak of 'a thousand years', it does not taking into literally excatly of how long it will be last. But it is a figurative meaning of very long period that the dead saints are currently reign with Christ in the heaven since from Pentacost to now, it already been almost 2,000 years, and probably it will be continue for the next another 1,000 years till around 3000 A.D. or 4000 A.D.

    Rev. 20:11-15 telling us, hell shall be cast into the lake of fire. Hell is a reserved place for unbelievers, disobey servants, await for the coming great white throne, also, all people who are already in hell, because their names are not find written in the book of fire, all of them WILL be cast into the lake of fire, is an everlasting punishment, not a temporary punishment. period. That's simple and plain.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  2. DeafPosttrib

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    av1611jim,

    Also, you say that, you don't believe in baptist purgatory.

    Amen.

    Yet, we can easily notice Faust and others teaching on millennial exclusion is very, very, very obivous recognize comparing as teaching of purgatory. Because, Faust and others saying cast in the hell, and shall hurt the second death, but for 'temporary time'. That is so very obivous notice it is part of purgatory. Faust and others refuse to admit it.

    I know why, because of many who teaching on millennial exclusion, do not want to label it as purgatory, because they not willing being to be compromising with Catholic's teaching of purgatory.

    Catholic's teaching of purgatory is very obivous see as heretic and flase doctrine.

    Recent, I rented a movie - "Martin Luther" about the true story of Martin Luther, the Monk of his biography life. That movie talks lot about purgatory. While he was Monk as Roman Catholic that time. He felt so misery to see many people walked up on the stair with their knees, willing to surrender life for their deceased relatives or family to get them out of the purgatory. Also, people have to pay the debts or taxes to Roman Catholic to release their deceased relative or family out of the purgatory. That was Catholic's filty business. Catholic stolen millions 'dollars' of money from people to pay by believed in purgatory. Roman Catholic is so very wealthy. God is not please with Roman Catholic, what they are doing to the people.

    Faust and others know Catholic's teaching on purgatory is false and heretic. Of course, Faust and others strong disagree with Catholic's teaching on purgatory.

    But, why yet Faust and others teaching that Christian shall be cast into hell, and shall hurt of second death but for a temporary time? This is very, very, very clear recognize as purgatory. Most baptists at Baptistboard can notice this teaching is easily recognize as purgatory.

    I know several of you - Lacy, av1611jim, deaconlew, and others won't admit this teaching is recognize as purgatory. Because I believe the reason you won't admit it, because you don't feel comfortable being label this as baptist purgatory being as compromise with Catholic's teaching of purgatory.

    This teaching is very obivous opinions, logicals, and flaws come from men's teaching, not base upon God's Word. So, therefore this is a heretic teaching.

    Christ never saying that a lazy servant shall be free or release out of the outer darkness beyond the judgement day of Matt. 7:21-23; Matt. 25:26-30, 31-46. No way you can prove that a lazy servant shall be release out of the outer darkness beyond the judgment day in the Bible. Your teaching is a fallacy and flaw. I rather follow and stick with God's Word, than what men saying according Colossians 2:8.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  3. av1611jim

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    We have addressed this a dozen times or more my friend.
    You disagree.
    You spiritualize passages which we do not.
    Until we can agree on how a passage is to be understood, we really can have no meaningful dialogue.
    You say "spiritual".
    We say "literal".

    How do you propose to get past that barrier?

    Answer this one question reasonably and we can go a little further. Otherwise the discussion is dead in the water to begin with.

    I am sorry friend.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  4. DeafPosttrib

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    av1611jim,

    Does Christ actual saying that a lazy servant shall be free or release out of the outer darkness or everlasting fire beyond of judgment day of Matt. 7:21-23; 25:26-30, 41, and 46?

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  5. av1611jim

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    He does say it here.


    Mt 18:30
    And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
    Mt 18:31
    So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
    Mt 18:32
    Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
    Mt 18:33
    Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
    Mt 18:34
    And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
    Mt 18:35
    So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

    Now brother. I was kind enough to answer your question.
    Would you be so kind as to answer mine? See my first post in this thread, and then answer me please.

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  6. carlaimpinge

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    Note the fact that the passage DOES NOT concern outer darkness NOR everlasting fire NOR hellfire NOR hell.

    The Lord Jesus DID NOT say OR teach that ANYONE was cast into hellfire AND let out afterwards TO GO INTO LIFE.

    The comparative passage is found in Matt.5 and Luke 12 which concerns PRISON (found in Matt.18) and HELLFIRE (not found in Matt.18), which is a GREATER JUDGMENT OF TWO WITHIN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, which is the SUBJECT in both contexts. (Matt.5, 18)

    In that kingdom, they are OFFERING gifts (Matt.5) before JUDGES who sit on thrones (Matt.19, 12) judging the 12 tribes of Israel. The LAW goes forth from Jerusalem (Isaiah 2, Micah 4) and it will be KEPT or there will be "consequences".

    RIGHTEOUS RULERS JUDGE ACCORDING TO THE LAW, along with Christ Jesus. (Psalm 122, Rev.20, Obadiah)

    The passages are JEWISH in context, and have NO DOCTRINAL APPLICATION (eschatologically) to the members of the body of Christ.
     
  7. Martin

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    Hi DeafPosttrib.

    I know this will be a little off topic, I hope you don't mind. Anyway I was reading through your post here and came accross this statement:

    How do you come to the conclusion that Revelation 20:1-7 is not literal?

    When I examine the text I see no reason to believe that it is anything but literal. You have a clear outline of events:

    1. Satan is bound (for 1,000 yrs)
    2. Saints are raised
    3. Saints reign with Christ (for 1,000 yrs)
    4. The rest of the dead are raised at the end of the 1,000 yrs.
    5. Satan is released after the thousand years are finished.

    There seems to be no purely textual reason for saying that the thousand years are not literal.

    You said:
    "But it is a figurative meaning of very long period that the dead saints are currently reign with Christ in the heaven"

    I have several problem with that statement.

    1. The text does not say that it is a "very long period", rather it says it is a thousand years.

    2. There is nothing current about the text. The text is clearly speaking of future events. How do I know this? It is talking about the resurrection of the dead (righteous and wicked) which certainly has not yet occured (Jn 5:25-29).

    3. The text does not place this event in heaven, but on earth. If you notice in verses 8-10 we are told that these events are happening on earth. This is in-line with the Old Testament prophecies that Christ would literally reign upon this earth from Jerusalem (see Joel 3:16, etc).

    For these reasons I cannot agree with your statement above.

    You said:
    " it already been almost 2,000 years, and probably it will be continue for the next another 1,000 years till around 3000 A.D. or 4000 A.D."

    ==This is a very good examle of post-millennial date setting. Jesus made several things very clear to us:

    1. That He will come suddenly (Mk 13:37).
    2. He will come unexpectedly (Mk 13:33, Matt 24:42-51).
    3. That there will be signs (Matt 24:3ff).
    4. That His coming could be long in coming (Matt 24:48).
    5. That He will come when people are not thinking He will (Matt 25:13).
    6. That nobody knows the time of His coming (Matt 24:42).

    Your view of Revelation 20:1-7 is strange when I consider your remarks on Revelation 20:11-15 (which you seem to take very plainly).

    In Christ,
    Martin.
     
  8. av1611jim

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    No sign of DPT?

    Hmmm

    In HIS service;
    Jim
     
  9. DeafPosttrib

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    Good Morning!

    I will reply back to you and Martin about 'a thousand years', also, I will have to show you many verses in the Bible tell which one is figurative or literal, depend on what the grammar or sentence is talking about. I will reply to you tomorrow or Tuesday for sure to continue discuss more.

    By the way, Matt. 5 and 18 say nothing about hell, the context of them talking about teaching us to be compassion upon any person who doing wrong against us, we have to forgive one other.

    I will continue discuss more tomorrow or Tuesday.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  10. robycop3

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    One of the shortcomings of the KJV is calling all the various temporary abodes "hell" except for paradise, of course. We have "sheol", Hebrew, "the grave", "hades", the Greek for sheol, and the temporary abode of the wicked dead, "tartaros", the temporary abode of the angels who sinned, and "gehenna", the lake of fire, the true eternal hell.

    The Greek reads, "death(thanatos) and HADES were cast into the LOF" If hades were hell, how could it be cast into itself? With GOD, all things are possible, but that's not something He's gonna do. Hades is separate from gehenna, but it's no vacation haven, either.

    Those who doubt...Read the Scriptures closely. read JESUS' parable of the rich man & the beggar Lazarus. Was the rich man in hades gonna get a second chance? Was his punishment temporary, with his later ending up in heaven ? Newp! He was being kept in hades awaiting the White Throne judgment and final sentence into gehenna FOREVER!

    All legends of "purgatory" have pagan origins, and, along with such pagan things as egg-laying Easter bunnies and "queen of heaven", were adopted into the RCC as a "boogerman" to extort more money from the parishioners. Unfortunately, these myths spread outside the RCC so that even a few Baptists believe them.

    Let me say it again...NO PURGATORY OF ANY KIND IS FOUND IN SCRIPTURE!!!!!!!!!! When you're hot, YOU'RE HOT!!!
     
  11. Lacy Evans

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    Roby,

    I was wondering why you conclude that Gehenna is the eternal LOF and not the (temporary) underworld (KJV-hell). I believe that Hades, Sheol, and Gehenna are all in the heart of the Earth and (if not synonomous terms - Hell) are all cast into the LOF.

    Lacy
     
  12. Lacy Evans

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    As I have said, the doctrine of Millenial exclusion does not stand or fall on the "hell" issue. Not all who believe in the accountability teaching believe(d) that those who miss the Kingdom end up in the underworld. (Zane Hodges, Charles Stanley, A E Wilson, etc.)


    DPT, we need to discus what you believe about salvation. If a Christian can loose his salvation, then tell me what possible sins could overpower the blood of Christ? What sins are so bad that they undo grace? If you fornicate do you lose it right then? Can you get it back? Can we be saved, then unsaved then saved again over and over?

    lacy
     
  13. robycop3

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    Because, Lacy:

    Revelation 20:13, NKJV "The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades(KJV-hell) delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works."

    Revelation 20:14, NKJV "Then Death and Hades(KJV-hell) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

    Tartarus isn't mentioned, but I'm guessing the angels who sinned were in the same boat as the AC, false prophet, and the devil...they went straight to hell, didn't pass Go, didn't collect $200. Clearly, hades/sheol is a temporary abode of the wicked dead. Now, whether the degree of punishment is the same in hades as it is in the LOF, I dunno & don't wanna find out unless Jesus or someone else already in heaven tells me!

    Hope this answers your question!

    Wonder if hell is not only in the center of the earth, but in another dimension which we cannot enter nor anyone leave? Guess Jesus will tell me some time if He chooses.
     
  14. DeafPosttrib

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    I understand the Bible talking about hell, we as baptists know it is a literal physical place where all disobedients, unbelief people are spend down there.

    Yes, right now, hell is right down there in the earth, where a rich man of Luke chapter 16 is tornmenting right now since for 2,000 years.

    Most baptists include me, believe hell is a temporary place like as "jail" for all unbelief and disobedient people . But most of us believe hell is a place for all people who are ALREADY reserved await for the coming of the judgement day - great white throne, then hell WILL be cast in the LOF, because all of their names are not find written in the book of life.

    All people who are already in hell right now, because their names are NOT find written in the book of life. They are suffering the second death. But, right now, all of us have first death, so we have to be born again, so will not suffer the 'second death'. Second death is speak of everlasting punishment in the LOF according Rev. 20:14-15.

    Soon later today or tomorrow I will discuss more on millennial. Because Faust just bring "millennial exclusion" up in the teaching. That teaching is part of Eschatology issue. That why I have to discuss about millennial, I was used myself as premill before for a long time. Now, I am amill. Later this week I will discuss more with verses to prove why premill teaching are mistakes.

    Also, I never agree with the teaching of millennial exlcusion, because there is NO promise find anywhere in the Bible saying that person who is already in the hell will be released or free then will live with Christ in the heaven. I never hear it before. Because Bible does not teaching it. I consider millennial exclusion is a heretical teaching, because it does not find anywhere in the Bible. This is base upon men's own teaching of their philosophy according Col. 2:8. That why I reject millennial exclusion. I rather follow what the Bible saying, period.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  15. carlaimpinge

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    Silly me, I didn’t know that the AV had any “shortcomings”. but I did notice that your understanding of hell in Rev.20 and the Lake of Fire is flawed.

    Gehenna IS NOT the lake of fire, as delineated in Rev.20. How do I know? Simple. It SAYS they are cast into the lake of fire, not hell. The ONLY HELL is a PLACE (OT or NT) which is under your feet INSIDE THE EARTH.

    Your question is easily answered due to your understanding being flawed. It is NOT being cast into itself (you’ve already MADE a false assumption which clouds the truth). HELL CONCERNS BODIES AND SOULS IN THE OT AND NT. (Death and hell) Death concerns the grave where BODIES go, while the SOULS concern those IN HELLFIRE. The terms are USED as the place which is associated with PEOPLE who have EXPERIENCED them. (One of them Greek whatchamadiggies!) Example. Woe unto thee Chorazin! (Matt.11) The city represents the people.

    The Lord was careful to let you know that HELL (hades) is a place of torment with fire, where the dead go (Luke 16), and that GEHENNA is a PORTION of that place which is connected with FIRE . (Gehenna-fire) Everybody DOES NOT go to the place of FIRE, as is evident from Luke 16. The place of the DEAD has compartments, which is evident by the separation of angels in tartarus, (2 Peter 1), those of YESTERYEAR, who are suffering the vengeance of eternal fire (Jude), and those of the OT who went elsewhere until the Lord LED captivity captive from the PRISON. (Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc.) Eph.4, Isaiah 61

    There are people there WHO ARE NOT IN FIRE. (Zech.9) There are WICKED PEOPLE in a prison. (1 Peter 3)

    There is another associated term called the BOTTOMLESS PIT (Rev.20), for it is called hell, defined as the pit in Isaiah 14.

    Those King James translators were correct WITHOUT contradiction. Imagine that.

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl

    [ April 18, 2005, 06:56 AM: Message edited by: carlaimpinge ]
     
  16. Lacy Evans

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    I agree that "Hades" is not the final place for the unsaved. But the scripture you mentioned (Rev. 20) does not mention Gehenna. Why do you think Gehenna is the (final) Lake of Fire and not rather just another name for "hades/sheol"?
    I believe Hades/Sheol/Gehenna/Tartarus (HELL) is cast into another place called the Lake of Fire in Rev 20.

    Lacy

    PS. OH My! I agreed with Carl. :eek:
     
  17. carlaimpinge

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    Amen, brother!

    It's good to know that you're on the RIGHT TRACK concerning this.

    Hopefully you'll be submissive to the Holy Scriptures in other areas.

    [​IMG]

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl
     
  18. Keith M

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    Here is a portion of an article I posted on this very subject in another forum on January 3, 2003. Maybe this will help to clear things up.

    "Gehenna, or Hinnom, is a valley south of Jerusalem where the backslidden, idolatrous Jews at certain points in history sacrificed their children by fire to Molech and Baal. This valley later became the "garbage dump" of Jerusalem, and it is said that fires were kept constantly burning for the destruction of the filth thrown there. In most of its occurrences in the NT, Gehenna refers to the place of the lost.

    Hades is the Greek word used to denote the unseen place of the dead. All the dead go there. However, there is a separation in that the evil dead are in torment while the righteous dead are not (see Luke 16:19-31).

    Sheol is the Hebrew word for the place of the dead. As with the Greek Hades, all the dead go there. It is the abode of both the righteous and the unrighteous dead (Psalms 9:17; 16:10; 30:3; 31:17 are just a few references). Sheol is described as dark (Job 10:21-22), deep (Job 11:8 ) and barred (Job 17:16). The dead also go down to it (Numbers 16:30, 33; Ezekiel 31:15-17).

    Okay, the original question was "Did Christ descend into hell?" Well, the answer is both yes and no. It depends on your definition of hell. Jesus did go to the grave as in the abode of the dead. While on the Cross, Jesus promised the penitent thief they would be together in paradise that very day (Luke 23:43). I have found no evidence to support the theory that Jesus went into the part of Sheol/Hades where the wicked are tormented.

    Christ was the first to break the bonds of death and the grave. He rose from the grave. Many think that when Christ conquered the bonds of death and the grave that He led the righteous dead to another place prepared for them. Christ had to be the first to conquer the grave or else His death and resurrection would not have been needed in order for OT saints to be rewarded. God had something better in mind for them (and for us), so the righteous dead were held until Christ came to free them (see Psalms 68:18 and Ephesians 4:7-10).

    If, in fact, there is a new paradise where the righteous dead go, where is it? Many of today's fundamentalist Christian churches teach that it is "up" but can't say exactly where it is. The fact that Jesus ascended when He left the earth (Luke 24:50-53; Acts 1:9-11) gives credence to this idea. In John 6:62 Jesus is spoken of as ascending. Romans 10:6 speaks of ascending into heaven. 2 Corinthians 12:4 speaks of being caught up to Paradise. And in 2 Corinthians 5:6-9 Paul speaks of being "well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:8 NKJV), indicating that, when we die in Christ, we go to be with Him.

    Many think that Christ gave a second chance to those who were lost and in the grave, but I find no evidence that this is so. Look at the story of Lazarus and the rich man once again (Luke 16:19-31). Did this event actually occur? I don't know. But whether Lazarus and the rich man were real people or not doesn't really matter. What does matter is the truth that Jesus taught through this parable. Once we have passed from this life into eternity, there is absolutely NO WAY to go from one place to the other. If we could go from one place to the other, everyone who ends up in torment would elect to go away from that terrible place. Everyone. Period. And if this were an option, it would mean that no one would receive their "just deserts" after death. It would make Christ's death and resurrection of absolutely no consequence. And since there is no way for us to go from one place to the other after we die, the ideas of purgatory and praying the dead "out of hell" are soundly disproved.

    There will be an eternal "lake of fire" created at a later date. The grave (Sheol/Hades) will give up its dead so that they may face the Great White Throne Judgment at the end of the world. Those whose names are not written in "the Lamb's Book of Life" will be sentenced to an eternity of fire and torment along with Satan and the fallen angels (Revelation 20:11-15). This place does not exist yet, but its permanence and the scope of its torment are reality."
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

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    Keith M.,

    Amen. Well saying. [​IMG] I agree with you.

    I believe Jesus did went down at his death to bring all saints out of Abraham's bosom according Ephesians 4:8-10 "Wherefore he saith, When he asecended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he asecended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

    I believe when Christ died, he did went to Abraham's bosom, and bring all saints out of Abraham's bosom, and all went up into the third heaven, where God is. While Christ wa son the cross. A thief told Christ, "Remember me." Christ told him, He promised him, that he will with him in the paradise today. He must have spoken of Abraham's bosom.

    I understand of Kule chapter 16 that it tells us the gulf ALREADY set apart or separate between Abraham's bosom and hell. There is NO bridge connect between them. Both are already set separated.

    Obivously, a rich man is a already lost and suffering everlasting punishment.

    Hell is a place for the reserved all people who are already there, await for the coming great throne throne, THEN, graves, hell, both shall be cast into the lake of fire, because all of their names are not find written in the book of fire.

    Also, 'second death' is not a temporary, it is everlasting punishment according Rev. 20:14-15.

    So, therefore, there is no purgatory teaching find in the Bible. Bible teaches us there is only two destiny places which one, we all will die and go right after our our death - heaven and hell. Very simple and plain. Hell is everlasting punishment await for the lake of fire. Heaven is everlasting life with Jesus Christ. Very simple.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  20. David M Walker

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    Amen, brother!

    It's good to know that you're on the RIGHT TRACK concerning this.

    Hopefully you'll be submissive to the Holy Scriptures in other areas.

    [​IMG]

    In Christ Jesus,
    Carl [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE][​IMG]
     

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