Baptist Purgatory

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Bartimaeus, Mar 11, 2005.

  1. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Is anyone familiar with Foust's book on how Christians will face judgement (i.e. fire) at the BEMA seat?
    Thanks ------Bart
     
  2. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Come to the conference!

    Lacy

    PS. Lots of us are familiar with it.
     
  3. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Lacy,
    Bro Foust, as I understand uses many parables concerning the kingdom to verify what he teaches. I was taught a long time ago that doctrine based on parables is weak at best and mostly wrong. Many will be at that conference who are my close friends but we will differ on this issue until when at the Bema Seat the Lord Christ shows us. Any fear and trembling that I do will be for the sure and certain judgement of my sowing to the flesh that I will reap while here on earth, (unless of course, Grace intercedes).
    Thanks ------Bart
     
  4. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    "My sin, oh the bliss of this glorious thought. My sin, not in part, but the whole is nailed to the cross and I bear it no more. Praise theLord, praise the Lord, o, my soul"
     
  5. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Cool song.

    Heb. 10
    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32
     
  6. Bartimaeus

    Bartimaeus
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2002
    Messages:
    909
    Likes Received:
    0
    Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
    "Praise the Lord, praise the Lord, o, my soul". Amen, Amen Bro C4K.
    Thanks ------Bart
     
  7. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    You really think this passgeis referring to erring Christians Bro. Lacy?

    How long must one burn to pay for sins for which Christ already paid the price? How many sins are enough for me to have to burn?
     
  8. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can go to almost any book of the New Testament and find the doctrine of future JSOC reward and/or chastening. It's not just the parables.

    But speaking of the parables, when you see the doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion, you'll never be afraid of the parables, or the book of Hebrews, or any other book that Hyper Dispensationalists tell us we cannot "get doctrine" from. Because when you have properly divided Free Grace from Reward, the whole Bible just flows smothly. It is one of the strongest witnesses to the truth of the doctrine. It makes everything just fit.

    lacy
     
  9. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen! It is both. We are eternally secure by simple faith. (Believing - John 3:16) But we are subject to chastening.

    "Perfect" must be divided. when it refers to our place in Christ, it is a done deal. It is absolute. When God looks at us, he sees Christ.

    However when the word "perfect is used in reference to our walk, it is a synonym for maturity. That "perfection" (Heb 6:1) is a process that must be kept separate (divided) from our positional stance.

    Here is my challenge. The one that got me. Show me in the New Testament where chastening is limited to this life. Show me where death automatically equalizes all of our walks.

    lacy
     
  10. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    He "was sanctified", by the "blood of the covenant". He has "received the knowledge of the truth." He is referred to as "The Lord's people" He has "in heaven a better and an enduring substance"(v. 34) He is exhorted to watch for the day of the Lord and to maintain a degree of practical holiness.(v25) (Also see 2 Peter 3:11)


    Can there be any doubt that he is saved?

    He cannot pay for any sin. But he must recieve his reward. No man can say "how many" sins. Even Paul wasn't absolutely sure. (1 Cor 9:27, 2 Cor 5:9-11, Phil 3:11-15, Heb 4:11)

    The "gift" is absolutely certain because it is based on the absolutely perfect, and absolutely finished work of Christ on the cross.

    The "Prize", on the other hand, is based on our faith plus our obedience in and through Christ as we walk. Because we are free will creatures, we can fail. We can choose not to be obedient. We can lose our "crown".(Rev 3:11) It is inherently uncertain and dependent on our "holding fast to the end", striving, wrestling, running, resisting, forgiving, showing mercy, etc.

    Lacy

    If we couldn't fail, then there would be no need for all the warnings to "be good or else". (Even though we are already "perfect" in one sense.)
     
  11. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness."

    "My little children, these things I write unto you that ye sin not. And if any man sin we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ous only, but for the sins fo the whole world."

    ALL of my sins were expiated by the blood of Christ when I accepted the payment for sins that only He could provide. To suggest that we can by any means pay the price for our own sins is to elevate us to the position of Christ.

    You mean to say that you serve a God Who is not content with the price that His Son paid, but must continue to chasten us even beyond the point of death? To use vernacular phrase, is God saying "I am going to beat you to death, and beyond?"
     
  12. DHK

    DHK
    Expand Collapse
    <b>Moderator</b>
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2000
    Messages:
    37,982
    Likes Received:
    134
    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    "Show me in the New Testament where chastening is limited to this life. "

    Will I be chastened when I am like Christ??
     
  13. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    According to the passage you used Bro Lacy, in verse 26 we read "there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" Clearly, if this is referring to "beleivers" the sacrifice has now been nullified, he is back in his sins, and therefore lost.
     
  14. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen! and Amen! I absolutely agree. This in no way contradicts the doctrine of Kingdom Exclusion.

    Hebrews 10:29 doesn't exactly sound like a picnic. (Also see 1 Cor 3:17, Rom 11:18-22)

    All chastening is, by definition, limited. You limit it to this life but on what scriptural grounds. I have to admit I like your "limits" better but what sayeth scripture?

    also see Luke 12: 46-48, 1 Tim 5:24-25) Judgment and reward is most often spoken of in context of the JSOC.
     
  15. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    If you agree that our sins are paid, for, you now imply that payment is not enough. "Your sins are forgiven, but now I am going to punish you for them."

    Clearly, 2 Cor 5 is dicussing judgement rewards in heaven, not fires of punishment.

    All of our works are burned up, that shows the unimportance of works. These does not mean that God burns his children for sins which are covered by the blood of Christ.
     
  16. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Roger,

    First of all there can be no nullification of the Sacrifice. This is not about nullification, but rather misapplication.

    It simply means what it says. "There remaineth no more sacrifice." Christ already paid for this sin. It is not a "salvation" issue. It is now a Family matter. If I am adopted, (paid for with immeasurable treasure) and I sin against my father, there is no more appeal to my adoption and the treasure that was given to obtain my sonship. I must now fearfully deal with family rules.

    In other words, we cannot appeal the blood of Christ (alone) when it comes to reward. Reward is in no way automatic and inherent in salvation.

    Christ's sacrifice alone was not meant to cover sins after faith (except in an absolute, eternal sense) when rewards are in mind. In other words, no disobedient son can plead the blood (alone)when crowns are being handed out. The blood alone is not for crowns. The blood plus works is for crowns.

    Simply put, Christ's sacrifice doesn't get Christians off the hook when it comes to chastening. (You can't whip me Daddy, I'm adopted!}

    Christ's sacrifice alone is the basis for our saving faith. This whole book (Hebrews) is addressed to folks who are way beyond saving faith. They are already eternally saved and secure.

    Paul says in Heb 10, "If WE sin. . ."


    Lacy

    (Aslan is not a tame lion.)
     
  17. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    I can quote a dozen verses that prove that God chastens Christians. Perhaps the most striking is in 1 Cor 11 where he makes some sick and kills some others. Their sins were forgiven and God punished them.

    That is what chastening means. Chaastening is a inherent sign of sonship.

    OK go back to the verse and tell me what the JSOC "reward in heaven" will be for the "bad" deeds done in the body. (also see Col. 3:23-25)

    I guess it doesn't necessarily mean that, but it certainly could. Especially when coupled with Matt 5:22-26, Matt 13:41,42, Matt 18:1,7-9, 21-35, Matt 24:42-51, John 15:2,6, etc.)

    I hope you take the time to honestly study the verses I have referenced.

    Lacy
     
  18. Lacy Evans

    Lacy Evans
    Expand Collapse
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,364
    Likes Received:
    0
    Got to get to sleep. (It's 2:15 AM on my side of the pond.) May God bless your studies.

    Lacy
     
  19. NaasPreacher (C4K)

    NaasPreacher (C4K)
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2003
    Messages:
    26,806
    Likes Received:
    78
    Chastening carries with it the idea of correcting, discipling, and "bringing into line." God chastens His children today when they need chastening to produce "the peaceable fruit of righteousness."

    Punishment is not the same as chastening. You theology has God punishing people, not chastening them.

    After death chastening would be meaning less, and Jesus has alrady taken on Himself to full measure of punishment.

    At the end of Hebrews 10 Paul also says "but we are notof them who draw back. Those who "draw back" are those who never come to the full knowledge of the truth.
     
  20. HankD

    HankD
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    15,144
    Likes Received:
    321
    Relax.

    Misereatur tui omnipotens Deus, et dimissis peccatis tuis, perducat te ad vitam aeternam.

    Now make a good Act of Contrition and say 10 Hail Marys and 10 Our Fathers.

    HankD (New Testament priest).
     

Share This Page

Loading...