Baptist Relationships -- Committment To

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Crabtownboy, Mar 24, 2009.

  1. Crabtownboy

    Crabtownboy
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    The following quote is from the forth coming book, "Hisory of the European Baptist Federation. I am curious about the feeling of those who post here on the statement and your belief on Baptist relations between differing Baptists, especially geographically?

     
  2. 4His_glory

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    My understanding of the BWA is that it has continually drifted toward liberalism. While I am not Southern Baptist, if I am not mistake their choice to severe ties was based upon the liberal drift. If that be the case I applaud the Convention for separating from the BWA.

    The author of this quote mistakenly believes that biblical separation is a "low view of committed relationships". I would submit that those who do not separate have a low view of the holiness of God in relation to the purity of the church.
     
  3. Crabtownboy

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    You might like to read the European Baptists view of the SBC separation from the BWA and of the promises made by the SBC to the EBF that were broken with no warning.

    It is easy to scream they are liberal. It is often done on the board here. It is an easy out and liberal is never defined. But, that does not mean they really are that liberal. Sure some are. But many are more conservative than the SBC.

    Having said that, IMHO, the heart of the matter went more to controlling power than theological liberalism or conservatism.

    Have a blessed day.

    If you would like more information I can give it to you. Gotta run for now ... busy day ahead.
     
  4. Revmitchell

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    Ridiculous....how does leaving the BWA lend to more power for anyone in the SBC?

    Crabby your comment is either woefully ignorant or intentionally incorrect. The BWA has moved both theologically and politically to the left. They fellowship with churches that accept practicing homosexuals and question the authority and reliability of scripture. The straw that broke the camels back was accepting the CBF. The fact that it is in cahoots with the UN is reason enough to disfellowship. There is no unity outside of doctrine
     
    #4 Revmitchell, Mar 24, 2009
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  5. 4His_glory

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    Thank you for clarifying the situation. While I am not SBC, I do applaud their separation from the BWA.
     
  6. Palatka51

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    Amen brother. There are several questions I'd like to ask though, Is it that these liberal associations miss the association of the right?
    Are they gloating that the right will not associate with the gay agenda of these groups?
    Are they feeling guilty for being enablers of sinful life styles?
     
  7. Crabtownboy

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    There is a difference between the BWA and the EBF. Dont' confuse the two. The statement in the OP is an example of the SBC even to talk with others, including a number of the Baptist Unons in Europe ... a number of them are more conservative than the SBC. Remember what is considered liberal or conservative is somewhat culturally driven. Also, though this quote did not speak to the issue of breaking promises given, yes there are records on paper, with no warning and refusing to meet wit EBF representatives to talk over the issue. This was extremely unethical.

    Also, remember the WBA is comprised of Baptists from all over the world. As more and more Baptists from European, Asian and African countries joined it became impossible to maintain the monolithic image. Not everyone around the world looks, or should look like the SBC. There are cultural differences, and all too often the SBC has supported US government actions that have hurt variuos Baptist around the world, i.e. Palestinian Baptista for example.

    One of the major reasons the SBC withdrew from the WBA was not theology, but plain old political power. The Europeans and other Baptists were increasingly refusing to let the SBC dictate ever jot and tiddle that was to be done within the organization. The conservatives leaders of the SBC could not stand that ended up withdrawing.

    I see no where in any of the teachings or word of Jesus that we are to refuse to talk with people who do not agree with us. Not long before the SBC withdrew from the WBA the FMB called a meeting in Europe to discuss the future. They said before the meeting that they were willing to listen and consider the view of the Europeans. However at the meeting the FMB representative, I won't use his name, did not want to listen, but to dictate what the Europeans were to do ... which was to do what Nashville and Richmond wanted them to do. After giving his demands the Europeans responded.

    Here is a short quote from the book:

    Footnote 130 reads: My conversations, at the time in Dorfweil immediately after the close of the final
    SBC-IMB session, with those present including K.H. Walter, Zjelko Mraz (Croatia),
    Samuel Verhaeghe (Belgium), Helen Wordsworth (United Kingdom).

    I removed the name of the IMB representative.

    It becomes quite obvious if you read on both sides of the issue that it was power more than theology that drove the SBC to withdraw from the BWA.

    Your final sentence says it all.Basically you are saying what the the SBC said and that is there will not no unity unless you kowtow to me [the SBC] in all things.

    Now that aside, how about talking about the real issue, should we American Baptists look beyond our own local church and work with others who do not look exactly like us?
     
    #7 Crabtownboy, Mar 24, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 24, 2009
  8. preachinjesus

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    The decision to leave the BWA was a bad one marked with inaccurate information and personal agendas. I remember at convention the year the SBC cut the funding by half the next person who was to pray was the President of the BWA. What a poor, childish act. Scheduling a vote like that before the man is to pray.

    Regardless, I still support the BWA. It's a good organization. Our world is bigger than the personal and political agendas of a few arrogant men. We need to remember there is far more that unites us with our Baptist bethern around the globe than divides us.

    We need more cooperation with our friends and brothers and sisters in Christ, not less. There is so much more we agree on than we disagree.
     
  9. Revmitchell

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    It is you who are confused. I responded to the false claim you made regarding why the SBC left the WBA.

    What kind of language is that in bold?

    So you say. But since you are liberal you would struggle to know yourself.

    The word culture is being used today to justify every liberal ideology under the sun.

    There is nothing presented in this thread that explains what happened. Just your vague claim. So whether any actions by the SBC were in fact unethical has not been established by you or anyone else.

    This is not relevant to whether the SBC should associate with them. When you allow organizations in that accept homosexuality and question the reliability of scripture then where they came from is irrelevant.

    So now you want to get into the Israeli conflict? That would be off topic would it not? How many different directions do you want to go?

    You have not established that. But here let me present some facts to you:

    http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=18475

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A44658-2004Jun15.html

    This statement is yet one more intellectually dishonest statement from you. To reduce the concerns and actions of the SBC to "refuse to talk" is not honest or honorable. It is in fact deceit.


    More liberal deception and redirection. It is a fact that churches and organizations were being let in that accept homosexuality. This is unacceptable and should never be condoned. It is a fact that churches and organizations were being let in that questions the reliability of scripture. It is a fact that the WBA allowed CBF into its organization. Now they are free to do what they want. But we are also free to associate or not associate with whomever we choose.
     
  10. Crabtownboy

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    Amen and Amen. You are correct. We Americans are often so narrow in our view and understanding of the world, and yet so arrogant in believing that whatever we say has to be right and others should blindly follow. There is so much that is right with our country, but it would be beneficial to the entire world if we grew up a bit and took consideration of others in the way we would like them to be considerate to us.

    As I said, the term liberal carries a lot of culture with it. There is the story about a BWA meeting held in Germany. During breaks delegates would gather in the town square, just outside the building where the meeting was being held. The Americans would stand on one side, smoking their cigaretts and condemn the Germans who stood on the other side drinking beer. The Germans, drinking thier beer, condenmed the Americans for smoking. And the Brizilian Baptists condemned both for their smoking and drinking. Drinking and smoking was LIBERAL and thus, sinful in the eyes of the Brazilians.
     
    #10 Crabtownboy, Mar 24, 2009
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  11. Crabtownboy

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    Not all my friend, not all. My you use the word liberal a lot. It was about power pure and simple. I didn't not mention many of the dirty tricks that conservative SBC leaders used in attempting to derail much of the work being done by the EBF and the lives they did manage to ruin, mainly many Amererican Missionaries and others who they decided they did not like.

    I suggest you read some objective history on deeds done by some of these folk.

    Now, if I hope you will respond with something of substance and not just throw out labels and accusitions. My guess is you have read nothing by Europeans on what happened as they see it or of others. If you have I'd love references to see if I've missed something.
     
  12. Revmitchell

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    Yet another false redirection by you. I posted much more substance than you have thus far. I did not simply use the word liberal. It appears you are not able to respond to any of it. As far as lives being destroyed well that would be a rather sensationalistic and even an extreme false allegation. But you have provided nothing on that either. You want to start a conversation that assumes your vague and false allegations are true so you do not have to try and provide any substance to back it up. What you are doing is gossip.
     
    #12 Revmitchell, Mar 24, 2009
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  13. preachinjesus

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    Agreed. We have a certain Ameri-centric arrogance that pervades all that we do. I'm not so sure it is a good way to view things, or perhaps we should (when viewing things) at least be concious of it.

    I completely agree. Labels are libels. One man's conservative is another liberal and vice versa. On some of the other boards I post on I've been called a fundamentalist and conservative (thse are bad words by my accusers.) On this board I get called a liberal, Bible-hater, and baby killer...but of course my accusers here get a free pass.

    Its funny that there are so many people looking for a fight around here and other places...maybe its because they aren't in one for the right reasons. It is all a matter of degrees. Some people will never be happy, even if they win the ideological and political battles.

    Well perhaps we should quickly end our little convo here since we are just a pair of loose lipped libs that have invaded this most hallowed hall of heroic conservatism.
     
  14. Revmitchell

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    More comments without specifics. It appears you cannot provide any substance at all. Just more vague allegations. More liberal anti- American, and anti-SBC rhetoric.
     
  15. Revmitchell

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    People hold on to strong views all over the world. But maybe this was just an opportunity for more anti-american rhetoric. Good for you.:thumbs: Capitalize on it when you can.


    Oh you must mean like "Ameri-centric". :thumbs:
     

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