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Baptist views of church-state separation

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by gb93433, Jul 9, 2009.

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  1. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    #21 Salty, Jul 9, 2009
  2. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    #22 gb93433, Jul 9, 2009
  3. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    ???? when?

    I think the Declaration of Independence, and the Constitution came after 1774. I could be wrong, but I'm just saying...
     
    #23 Salty, Jul 9, 2009
  4. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    We all claim separtion of church and state, except when it comes to certain benefits.

    I grew up with a state church in England, and until very recently, without separation of church and state in Canada. The Anglican Church was the unofficial church of Canada so much that we had to use Anglican Church practices as a chaplain in the armed services. One could be a Baptist, but the service was Anglican from the Anglican Common Book of Prayer.

    I think in America, and this is my outside observance, everyone wants separation of church and state but everyone also wants to impose religion on the state and state institutions such as public schools. Ironic, innit?

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
    #24 Jim1999, Jul 9, 2009
  5. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    I am not one for imposing religion on others, but I believe it is wrong to totally shut out religion.
     
    #25 Salty, Jul 9, 2009
  6. Timsings

    Timsings Member
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    A few points. First, I'm not sure what you're implying by your connection of deists and Quakers with the lack of welcome for Baptists. Roger Williams founded Rhode Island after being banished by the Puritans of Salem. Rhode Island became a haven for other persecuted groups including Quakers and Jews.

    Second, Baptists were not without influence when the country was young. John Leland, the Baptist pastor, was a friend of James Madison. His influence helped us get the First Amendment added to the Constitution.

    Third, the problem wasn't theocracy. It was the third conception listed in the OP, a church supported with tax dollars. Several states did not stop this practice until well after the ratification of the Constitution. I think Massachusetts did not end the practice until the 1820's.

    Finally, it is clear that any attempt by the church to use political parties to achieve the church's aims is doomed to failure. This is true regardless of the party involved.

    Tim Reynolds
     
    #26 Timsings, Jul 9, 2009
  7. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    If I remember correctly, the Constitution was ratified in 1788 and the Bill of Rights (which contains the First Amendment) was ratified in 1791.

    The Declaration of Independence was signed on July 4, 1776.
     
    #27 Baptist Believer, Jul 9, 2009
  8. Magnetic Poles

    Magnetic Poles New Member

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    The government was constituted in 1789 under the Constitution. Between independence and then, the nation was governed under the Articles of Confederation.
     
    #28 Magnetic Poles, Jul 9, 2009
  9. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    The U.S. was not founded as a Christian nation.

    They had great influence but some states did not welcome Baptists. Their influence came early on but not initially. Nor were they welcomed in Europe. They were called rebaptizers in Europe.

    Even thought they did not want a state religion that is all they knew. So that practice started and then came the free church.

    I agree. Making disciples is not about politics. Many Christians need to place their hope in God and also realize the variety of differences in politics among those Jesus chose as His disciples.
     
    #29 gb93433, Jul 10, 2009
  10. alatide

    alatide New Member

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    This is my conviction. On the one hand we have the kingdoms of this world. On the other hand we have the Kingdom of God. Where should our allegiance lie as Christians? Of course it should be primarily with the Kingdom of God. None of the kingdoms of this world will ever live up to the Kingdom of God. That includes America which is a great kingdom of this world but not the entity that we as Christians owe our allegiance to. We are told in the Bible that we are in this world but not of this world.

    Pushing America as a Christian nation indicates to the lost that it represents the real Kingdom of God. Nothing could be further from the truth. America is a great kingdom of this world but a very poor substitute for the Kingdom of God. When America does something that is unChristian, unbelievers look at that and say that this religion called Christianity isn't all that it's touted to be. We must advance the true Kingdom of God and not a poor substitute for it.
     
    #30 alatide, Jul 10, 2009
  11. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Muslims from other countries that I have talked with see America as a Christian nation with much hedonism. They are surprised.
     
    #31 gb93433, Jul 10, 2009
  12. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    I must have missed that day in class:

    Main Entry: hedonism [​IMG] !hE-d/un-+i-zum
    Pronunciation: \ ˈhē-də-ˌni-zəm \
    Function: noun
    Etymology: Greek hēdonē pleasure; akin to Greek hēdys sweet - More at - sweet
    Date: 1856
    Results
    1. 1 the doctrine that pleasure or happiness is the sole or chief good in life
    2. 2 a way of life based on or suggesting the principles of hedonism
     
    #32 Salty, Jul 11, 2009
  13. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Just a bunch of Czars.
     
    #33 Aaron, Jul 11, 2009
  14. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    I think we have gotten way of the OP
     
    #34 Salty, Jul 11, 2009
  15. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I should have phrased that differently. Those I know thought of America as a Christian nation before they came but once they arrived they were confronted with hedonism (things such as sensuality, carnality, sexual promiscuity, etc.) which is not in agreement with their perception of Christianity nor biblical Christianity.
     
    #35 gb93433, Jul 11, 2009
  16. alatide

    alatide New Member

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    That's because the concept of a Christian nation that has been pushed is a kingdom of this world with a civil religion called christianity. The REAL Christian nation is the Kingdom of God on earth.
     
    #36 alatide, Jul 11, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 11, 2009
  17. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Unfortunately it has been pushed by the religious folks in an effort to prove that America started as a Christian nation and they want America tro return back to "where it once was". I guess that would include pistol packing pastors and riding on horseback too.

    If the folks who were dreaming of the past would pray, do evangelism, and make disciples as Jesus did in the present then most likely the present would come closer to their dreams for the present and future.
     
    #37 gb93433, Jul 11, 2009
  18. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    It's simply a statement of fact, that Christianity founded this nation, not the humanism of the so called "Enlightenment."
     
    #38 Aaron, Jul 11, 2009
  19. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    That's right and libbies hate that fact.
     
    #39 Revmitchell, Jul 11, 2009
  20. Berean

    Berean Member
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    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

    Congress shall make no law that makes the Evangelical Church the church of the state..........
    Congress shall make no law that makes The Roman Catholic Church the church of the state.........
    Congress shall make no law that makes the Muslim Church the church of the state.........

    I can find no place in the constitution where it refers to church, state or uses the term separation
     
    #40 Berean, Jul 11, 2009
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