Baptist words of doubtful truth

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Alcott, Mar 20, 2013.

  1. Alcott

    Alcott
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    My original title was too long for the space, and the new one may be more accurate anyway; at least it's more inclusive.

    But some things that are often said from a pulpit or podium by preachers or conference speakers do extend to some of our common conversations. For me, one would be times one is about to preach about hell, and prefaces it with a facsimile of "I would rather talk about any other subject than what I am going to talk about here." I just don't buy that. Are they getting at the 'ESP with God' concept, as I refer to it, and claiming they're forced to talk about the subject against their will? This also has a corollary which usually accompanies it, which is something about "scaring you into getting saved." Of course they say 'no one ever gets scared into salvation.' But there can't be any other reason for an emotional and pressured appeal about the one way to avoid spending an eternity in torment-- if there is, then why not preach something that may bring a person to salvation, instead of something that can't? I'm not saying it's wrong to preach on or about the subject, but to be honest about the wish to, and reason for, doing so.

    "I'm excited about what our church is doing!" It seems like it's well into the hundreds, the times I've heard that. If it's true, then I think "excited" has virtually lost any real meaning, as often as we hear it. I remember saying it myself the 2nd or 3rd time I ever preached in church, and I really thought I meant it. But I've known for a long time that I said it because I thought it was just the right thing to say. In some ways, church is not so unlike secular business meetings or extended family reunions where we hear similar things.

    "This is a wonderful church to be a part of!" Yeah, another one like the above paragraph. It's equivalent is inserting adjectives like "great" or descriptions like "an unusual spirit" into any message, newsletter, even into a vocal prayer. In truth, do we really think that highly of our own church, or subgroup thereof? Possibly, but chances are that is said by some who think it's basically fair or average. So what is this? team spirit and cheerleading? In many cases, it is, I think. In any event, if you have a big-name evangelist, for example, who comes to speak and says otherwise-- as a church I was in once had-- saying your mission efforts sound more like vain afternoon tea meetings, then the talk will become about how we "never want hm back again." Pastors, of course, frequently flatter their churches because it's in their job interest.

    One more for now... "I covet your prayers." You do, huh? Well, perhaps covetousness is anther O.T. commandment that is redefined in the N.T., so we can covet prayers, even though originally that commandment was to not cover anything that 'belongs' to someone else. But why is this request termed such a way? "Covet" is a word seldom heard outside a church/religious context in modern times, like 'congregation' and 'testimony.' It rather seems as if the one who says that is acknowledging we can stick covetousness "in your face" as long as it's about prayer. If you've said that recently, please tell why that was your choice of words.
     
  2. Alive in Christ

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    Well, I have to say...

    This is one of the weirdest posts I have ever read in all these years on this board.

    I will let others determine its worth for discusstion


    Carry on... :tongue3:
     
  3. saturneptune

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    Very interesting thread. It shows thinking outside the establishment theological box. I do think the Lake of Fire (hell is a temporary holding place) should be common knowledge as to how one arrives there and why. However, as an appeal (usually Sunday morning) to salvation, it is horrible. Being scared of hell or the Lake of Fire saves no one. The grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ and His finished work on the cross is all that saves, and the sermon should focus on some aspect of that. Now, a reference to the negative consequences of dying without Christ can be mentioned in a sermon, but not the entire sermon. Also, you present a senario of someone standing around discussing what they are going to preach about. The way I look at that this way. God or the Holy Spirit impresses a pastor what to speak about. If it were me, I would just speak on that given subject without conversation with others. There is no love in a relationship based on avoiding punishment or getting out of consequences. Salvation is based on, besides what Christ did for us, a true love of the Lord from the heart of a lost sinner via the Holy Spirit.

    Again, I agree. "Excited" is a human emotion, and is basically a worthless standard when trying to measure what the Lord is doing through a given local church. "Excited" is a surface human emotion that comes and goes based on temporary circumstances. If one wants something of substance to go by, then try one of the nine fruits of ths Spirit that are in every believer every minute of the day regardless of outside circumstances. For example, if the Lord is doing great things towards saving people by using a local church and its members, "excited" might last for a couple of days until a person gets bored, tired, or something does not go their way. Contrast that with a fruit of the Holy Spirit, joy. It will be there to draw strength from at any time regardless of outside circumstances. It is like someone, say at an altar, at the exact moment of salvation. One might say "I did not feel anything." Where in the Bible does it say you feel anything? You trust in Christ that He saved you as the Bible and the Words of the Lord promise. It is not about feelings, it is about faith. The fruits of the Holy Spirit will manifest themselves with time.

    All local churches have problems. We have been over this before, but one of the most severe problems that cause disunity is gossip that is rampant and goes unchecked by the local congregation. The second most severe problem in a local church to the work of the Lord is cliques of power in the congregation, whether it be a collection of deacons or members in the upper crust of society. I am all for unity by avoiding division of ridiculous issues, like what color he carpet should be. However, the concept of cheerleading to create a false unity is almost heretical. The idea is to confront the problem (like gossip) with the help of hte Lord and prayer, root out the offenders, and the unity will return. There is nothing more destructive more than a unBiblical pat on the back.

    I have never used the word covet, but may say something like "Please remember (my family, me or a situation) when you pray to the Lord." I will make a couple of comments about the routine use of the word prayer I have noticed over the years. One is, if someone is asked to do a task in the church, if I hear the words "I will pray about it" it almost always translates into "I do not want to be bothered." Also, one has to wonder, when there is a prayer list of several people to pray for, or if someone has told you that "you are in my prayers," how many times does that person really pray, if at all.
     
  4. saturneptune

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    Actually, I consider it one of the interesting one. Its worth for discussion is worth many times more than all Calvin-free will threads and the KJVO posts combined.
     
  5. HeirofSalvation

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    Are people saying that scaring people about the reality of hell is NOT a legitimate warning for preachers to engage? I think that it is not only effective and right, but it is also clearly Biblical:
    Jud 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
    Jud 1:23 And others save with fear, pulling [them] out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.


    It's cute if modern Christians want to be Calvies and what-not....but don't throw the baby out with the bath-water. The Arminian tradition of preaching a fearsome hell in order to persuade men towards repentance is NOT something we need to abandon. Jonathan Edwards was quite the fan of such preaching as well. "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" anyone??Perhaps I mis-understand what people are suggesting here.
     
  6. Oldtimer

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    It is an interesting thread. As a layman, who spent far too much time away from the church, I come here to learn. IMO, part of the learning process is to consider things not previously considered for whatever reason.

    "Covet your prayers" is an example. Have heard the term, but have never considered the implications associated with it.

    Another is summed up here. Saturneptune wrote:
    Short version of a long story. I questioned my salvation for many years. The day, I came forward during an alter call. After being voted into membership, the pastor told the congregation that I didn't show enough emotion.

    What kind of emotion was a skinny teenager supposed to show as proof of his salvation? What was I missing? Was I supposed to be crying? Was I supposed to be laughing with joy? How does a teenager emote a quiet sense of peace that settled on me that day? Perhaps, those words spoken by one who was supposed to be my shepherd is part of the reason I drifted from "church" for far too long.

    When God was ready, He called me back into another church. Of that I have no doubt. There, another shepherd, without knowing he was doing so, helped erase those lingering questions and doubts from so long ago. (I've never told him about what happened "that day".)

    Threads like this one, help me to grow in maturity in His word. They present an opportunity to give my testimony. They are the reason why I haven't left this forum when the fighting gets so fierce over certain issues. Especially in view of the simplicity of these two verses from the Bible.

    Luke 23: KJB
    42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
     
    #6 Oldtimer, Mar 21, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 21, 2013
  7. Alcott

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    Maybe that pastor would have been satisfied if you had thought to say, "As a new Christian, I covet your prayers." But that's not teenage language, and you might have gotten your commandments mixed up and said "I want to steal your prayers." But your experience can make one wonder why, when you respond to an invitation and get asked those questions-- "Is Jesus the Lord of your life now?... Do you believe he died on the cross to save you from your sins?"-- and you give the "right" answers-- "Yessir...yessir..."-- that if he really doesn't believe you, why he doesn't say so, or mention further consultation. That rather than immediately 'vote' you in for membership and then "Now, this business about your not acting like you just got saved..." Well, membership protocol is really a different subject than this thread's, and probably should be its own (thread).

    Thank you for sharing your experience. We covet responses, don't we? Like that pastor coveted your emotionalism. He shouldn't have sulked about not getting it.
     
  8. 12strings

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    This is going to sound harsh, so if you don't want to read my reasons, here's my main point right at the beginning:

    --> I think you are seeing problems where there are none.

    Here's why:

    HOS has gotten to the idea. It is Biblical to warn people of Heaven. It is historically validated by several Godly preachers. I think it is certain possible, and in many cases likely true that a preacher does not want to preach on hell, but feels that it is his duty to do so. This could apply to other topics as well. Admitting as much to his congregation does not equal some dishonest motive.

    Can this be said in an ungenuine way? Sure. But Just because a pastor praises his congregation, or even cheerleads them a bit...I think that is entirely appriate, good, and even modeled in scriptures. Consider Paul in 1 Cor. 1...he lavishes praise on this church that he is about to lambast for immorality, worldliness, divisions, lawsuits, etc. Part of leadership is encouraging people, even people who have real problems.

    Also, if your church is doing some good work of missions, outreach, service, etc...and the pastor is excited about it, he should say so.

    Also, knowing the situation my pastor came from, which was a church full of division and fights and power-struggles...I know he means it when he says He's glad to be a part of our current church, which has had great unity for the last 6 years he has been here.

    Covet can be and is used in scripture in a positive way:

    "But covet earnestly the best gifts." (1 Cor. 12:31)

    Just like the word "Lust" can be bad or good depending on the object, so too with covet.



    So...sure, people can say things with false motives...but they can say ANYTHING with a false motive...It's not linked to a few specific phrases.
     
  9. Alcott

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    That is not the 'complaint' put forth in this thread. Rather is was about the honesty of the big prologue preferring to preach about 'any other subject.' And perhaps more so, making a bold speech that nobody gets "scared into being saved." The next time I hear those things, if I get the chance I think I'll go up to teh guy and say, "I lent you my ears, Brother Mark Antony, and as you give them back the wax is just a little more eloquent." Yeah, I hope he starts thinking "What did he mean by that?"
     
  10. Jerome

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    Yes, look how very very rare that word is today:

    A sample from the past several weeks of Google News:

    http://www.google.com/webhp?complete=0#hl=en&safe=off&complete=0&site=webhp&tbm=nws&q=covets



    They must think they can stick covetousness "in your face" as long as it's about smartphones. Or football. Or pop music!

    These sportswriters, tech and music biz journalists need to "tell why" that was their choice of words!

    Don't they know that covet is a word seldom heard outside a church/religious context in modern times??!!

    Plus, it's not teenage language!

    :tonofbricks:
     
  11. Alcott

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    The word is used in business news and in the seriousness of world affairs where different ethnic groups want the same land or resources, or different political parties want the same offices, sports teams want the chance to smear other teams they despise, et al, et al. In normal conversation, however, I don't hear it; hardly ever except in quoting scripture. When I was a teenager I don't recall any fellow teen using it. So-- interested, or not-- that's what I based my characterizations on.

    With the things you bring up, or with the things I did, its use does come down to word choices that imply greed and egotism. "Covet to speak in tongues" denotes that also, especially considering the overall discussions in I Corinthians about gifts, positions, and divisions.

    So, as one coveter to another-- as both of us covet the agreement of others about the use and implications of the world covet-- covet a good day and a good weekend!
     

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