Baptists Believe...

I am giving you a standing ovation javalady!! WELL PUT. It gets awful lonely on this "Baptist" board at times.

 

Other than the heresy in No. 6, I too am a Baptist!!

 

Amazing! SirEd believes Martin Luther was a heretic!

Martin Luther: "Baptism is a Greek word, and may be translated immerse. I would have those who are to be baptized to be altogether dipped."

 

Thomas, immersion is always better; at least in regard to the symbolism accept of Baptism.

Peace be with you.

 

Dear Javalady,
Thanks for your efforts.

This has probably been beaten to death, but I've not been here that long so here goes:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Once we have been born again, Baptists thankfully acknowledge that we can never "lose" or "forfeit" the gift of ETERNAL salvation which God has given us .... "Once saved, always saved" .... True believers persevere, and do not fall back into perdition.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just don't understand my Baptist friends. They frequently mention that someone "got saved". Now they have no concerns for that friend's salvation ever (or themselves if they are the one saved).

1. Does this mean that a person who sincerely accepts Christ and then for what ever reason a few years later "falls away" from going to church. They start running with the bad boys and before you know it they are breaking most if not all the ten commandments. Are they still saved? Like they got a "get out of jail free" card?

2. Sort of added to the "once saved always saved" is the "believers persevere" requirement. Now are you saying Once saved always saved only if you persevere?
3. The persevering requirement makes salvation a continuing process doesn't it?
4. Or do you believe that a person who accepted Christ and was "saved" and later breaks all the commandments, just never really was saved in the first place? If that is the case, doesn't that go against the whole idea of knowing if you are saved or not.

I don't want to argue with you but I just don't understand the concept.

As you can tell from my writing, I'm just a simple farm boy. Please give me a straight across the kitchen table sort of answer. If you could just put it in your own words, not just a quote or two or four that can be understood differently by many.

I liked your straight forward list of beliefs.

Thanks,
Garce and peace,
Uncle Ray

 

Javalady are you out there??
Uncle Ray

 

Give her a little time, Uncle Ray. She's a preacher's wife which is a duty that requires being on call 24 hours, maintaining a good appearance at all times, always setting the example, and just generally being everything to everybody. She'll get back to you.

- Clint

 

I can't speak for Javalady, but I do believe in eternal security, once saved is saved once. I believe God will call the fallen home once they get past a certain point. I don't treat it as a 'get out of jail free card', just eternal securtity.

Case in point, I won't know for certain until I get there myself, but I believe Elvis Presley is in heaven.

 

Dear Javalady,

Thanks again for the thoughtful reply. I've some questions but need to think about it a bit first.

Clint says you are a preacher's wife and thus

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Clint Kritzer

on call 24 hours, maintaining a good appearance at all times.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seems when I was a Methodist the preacher's wife's duties seemed to be fairly straightforward with a bit of subtle good judgement thrown in.

Minimum was she taught children in Sunday School and played the organ.

The subtle part:

-She should be attractive enough that members are happy to say she is their Pastor's wife. And yet not more attractive than any other woman in the church so that no woman feels insecure. Certainly not so attractive the men are noticing.

-House was always to be clean and orderly. Yet not so spotless that any member of church could stop by for a chat and coffee any time of day. "Oh, pastor won't be home for two hours. I guess I can just wait here and we can chat.You weren't doing anything were you?"

- Children best behaved. (They weren't)

Guess that is off topic. I just hope your congregation includes you and your family in their constant prayers. He can't do it with out you.

I'll get back soon.
Uncle Ray

 

Mr. Curtis,
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> ...once saved is saved once. I believe God will call the fallen home once they get past a certain point. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you mean by call the fallen home once they get past a certain point?
Is this suppose to mean that God does not allow them to sin further? I don't think you mean they die.

Again, what if they are out there breaking all the commandments? Still saved?

As for Elvis, he was spotted just up the road near his old house in Tupelo. You don't think it's bi-location do you?

Grace and peace,
Uncle Ray

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Thomas Cassidy
Administrator
Member # 187
posted January 30, 2002 12:32 PM
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Amazing! SirEd believes Martin Luther was a heretic!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I won't argue with that.
Uncle Ray

 

Dear Javalady or friends,

I don't question the scriptures in your response, I just still don't understand. I don't believe you aimed quite at the center of my ignorance. Now it might be the theology of individual Baptists and not official doctrine but here is still my issue.

Baptists talk of being saved and more importantly they speak of being certain that they are saved. I guess it's this "knowing" that confuses me.

It's the business of
if you died tonight would you know if you are going to heaven.?

If someone is "saved" by Baptist standards are they once saved always saved?

Is it really the case that you are "saved" only if you are "really, really saved" and Baptists don't know if they are "really saved" any better than any one else?

I guess it's the "certainity" of "being saved once and always" that throws me. Baptist laypeople in their witnessing use this a lot. That's why I wonder.

Grace and peace,
Uncle Ray

 

Uncle Ray,

Your quote:


<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>1. Does this mean that a person who sincerely accepts Christ and then for what ever reason a few years later "falls away" from going to church. They start running with the bad boys and before you know it they are breaking most if not all the ten commandments. Are they still saved? Like they got a "get out of jail free" card?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Allow me to quote my life verse, 2 Corinthians 5:21- For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him"
I'll tell ya Uncle Ray, I try through the grace of God to live a godly life but that old nature always gets the best of me. I thank God for imputed righteousness because "in my flesh dwells no good thing". "If righteousness comes by the law then Christ is dead in vain" "All our righteousness is filthy rags" Psalm 34:6 " This poor man cried and the Lord heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles".
With me Uncle Ray, its all of Christ. Man, its a "get out of hell free card"!!

 

Man, its a "get out of hell free card"!!

Best description of heresy I ever heard in a long time. That kind of thinking, formulated by Luther's "faith alone" theological novum, turned Germany into a moral cesspool before Luther died. He lived to see the wretched results of his little experiment in ecclessiastical rebellion and regret it deeply.

(I'm waiting for a certain member in our church to bring me an interesting writing which he says shows that Luther recanted his heresies and was reconciled to the Holy Mother Church before dying. Another story for another thread).

Javalady -- I have made mention of this in other places, so the others may have read this already, but I post it for you.

Salvation is a covenant between God and man. Covenants are breakable, that is, we can enter into them and break them.

A covenant is a living relationship between two people. Your marriage is the best example of this (note how the Scriptures use many marital terms to describe the relationship between the believer and the Lord). In the marital covenant, two people become one flesh BY THE UNION OF MIND AND BODY. A marriage is where two become one. While ideally we wish that this would happen instantaneously, the reality is that such unity is worked upon over the lifetime of the marriage.

In like manner, we spend our lifetime becoming one with our Lord. It is the goal of the Christian to acheive a high degree of what the Orthodox Church calls "theosis" while still on this earth (Theosis = becoming like God). This is done by the unity of our will to His as our covenantal head. The lesser in the covenant always subjugates to the greater. That is why women are called to be submissive to their husbands. It is the principle of covenantal hierarchy. The man is the covenantal head.

We as believers are called to bring our passions under control and exercise our wills to be in conformity to the Law of God as summed up by our Lord ("Love God - Love neighbor"). Every act and deed of such love we do brings us into more sanctification, for these deeds are acts of faith. This is what James meant when he said that he showed his faith by his works. Works are the icon of faith.

But like a marriage, our relationship with God can sour. We can seek our own wills (sin) in varying degrees so that our Lord becomes estranged from us. And there are some sins which Scripture calls "sin unto death" (we call mortal sin) which absolutely SEVER the covenantal bond between us. We separate ourselves from God by severing ourselves from His will. This is covenant breaking, and if we die in such a state, we will not inherit eternal life. (Matt. 19:29; Matt. 25:34; Mark 10:17; Luke 10:25). Eternal life is an inheritance, and inheritances are only given to those children of the covenant who KEEP THE COVENANT by works of obedience.

The best picture of this is the parable of the Prodigal Son. Notice that the son was always a son of the father, but that he, by sinning against the father, separated himself from the father. This is EXACTLY what we do when we choose sin over God's will. We sever that unity of with the Father's love and go into the far country of sin.

Now.....suppose the boy had DIED in the far country of sin? Would he have gotten the inheritance that was awaiting him? (Yes, there was still more, all he got was the earnest money). Nope. He would have died outside the father's kingdom and would have lost all that was his by inheritance as a child of the father.

Our covenantal relationship to God works the same way. As long as we stay "in the kingdom" by our deeds of obedience to God, we enjoy His fellowship and expect to recieve the inheritance of eternal life. But if we decide to sin by doing that which is offensive to our Father, we break that relationship with Him and we, in essence, "leave the kingdom" for the far country of sin. That is what it means to commit "mortal sin".

There is also a beautiful picture of our Sacraments in the parable. Upon returning, the boy confesses (Sacrament of Pennance), and the fatted calf is slain for a feast (Sacrament of the Eucharist). The fatted calf in the OT was a SACRIFICIAL ANIMAL which was offered for sin and THEN WAS EATEN. Christ is now our Lamb, present on the altar for our reception after we have made good confession.

The idea that one is "once saved -- always saved" breaks the covenantal pattern of God's salvational dealings with mankind in both OT and NT. It also comes from Luther's very poor understanding of how God deals with us. Poor old Luther. He just couldn't accept that the Father really did love him and the Sacraments really did forgive him, so he had to invent that idea of "faith alone" and "imputed righteousness" which had never, in 1500 prior years, ever been taught by the Church.

Our salvation is a living relationship with God. We enter into union with Him, a union so deep and real that it we are called the Body of Christ. The same imagery is set forth in the description of the "one flesh" union of marriage. But just like marriage, one can leave. God never will, but we can and many do, to their own destruction.


Cordially in Christ,


Brother Ed

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by UncleRay:
Mr. Curtis,


What do you mean by call the fallen home once they get past a certain point?
Is this suppose to mean that God does not allow them to sin further? I don't think you mean they die.

Again, what if they are out there breaking all the commandments? Still saved?

As for Elvis, he was spotted just up the road near his old house in Tupelo. You don't think it's bi-location do you?

Grace and peace,
Uncle Ray<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The last part was pretty funny.

Yes, I mean they die, and eternal secyrity means even if they are breaking every one of the commandments, although I don't know of a truly born-again Christian who would want to do so. If you can sin without conviction, I would doubt you'r salvation. Let's look at Elvis. In his later, sin-filled years, he was probably the most miserable man on the planet. i believe at one point in his life, he accepted Christ as his savior, & backslid his entire adulthood. To me, John 10:28 means that not even I could squirm out of Jesus' grasp.

 

Dear Javalady, Mr. Curtis, & Psalm,

Thanks for the explanations.

Some issues with Christians result when we use different terminology to discuss similar concepts. We have been conditioned and taught that our words are correct and the other Christian's word is incorrect. And some even believe that the other Christian's word is not defined as the user says it is defined.

We are closer to each other than we think. Baptists are a branch of the Presbyterians. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>if God foreknew us (which is a term which means "to love beforehand"), then He predestinated us. If He predestinated us, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As for my buddy PS 104
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'll tell ya Uncle Ray, I try through the grace of God to live a godly ...This poor man cried and the Lord heard him, and saved him out of all his troubles"....
With me Uncle Ray, its all of Christ. Man, its a "get out of hell free card"!!
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Posts <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you keep up your good works , keep asking for forgiveness, and quit picking on Christ's Holy Catholic Church you probably won't need to use your get out of hell free card.

And then some Christians, even when we want to hug our brothers and sisters, we stand on their toes while doing it.

Grace and peace,
Uncle Ray