Baptists Many Years Ago

The rolls need to be cleaned up apart from any other issue.

 

Amen to that. In fact, Mike, in our own church, we euphemistically call it "cleaning up the rolls," or "removing names from the rolls." We might do well to call it "disfellowshipping" or "exercising church discipline."

You and I agree that this is important, and I think we ought not soften the importance and impact of what are doing.

 

Yes JoJ, there must of necessity be a church roll because we are flawed and not omni-everything as our Father in heaven and it is the best way we know how to distinguish the wheat from the tares (and perhaps get it wrong often)

As for Universal Church vs Local Church, IMO both are scriptural with the greater emphasis (for the moment) on the local church but there is a "church role" of said Universal Church:

Revelation 21:27 ... they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.​

Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.​

HankD

 

I ask this question for the umpteenth time: Exactly what is the function of the "Universal" Church?

One answer posted is that it exists for God's pleasure. My question relates more to what it does. What is the "church role" you mentioned?

 

The OP forgot to mention pew rents, spitoons, slavery and drinking wine from a common cup for communion/Lord's supper.

 

The Bible says to glorify God.

1 Cor. 10:31 "Whether, then, you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God."

 

To tell you the truth, I've forgotten many things the Baptist church I first joined believed, but much was included in what you have presented.

Add to that - - -

No drinking by anyone.

No dancing by anyone.

No poker playing or any kind of game with cards, except "Go fishing".

No "dice" allowed. Monopoly could be played if a "spinner" was used, after destroying the dice by whatever method available.

No games of chance or skill if the game was subject to "gambling". Of course "dominoes, and forty-two" were made exceptions.

The most holy did not cook on Sunday, but it was officially approved for those that believed they could.

And no smoking (unless we got a pastor that smoked).

A Southern Baptist Church it was.

 

Some pictures of the 'Universal Church':

1. The Bride of Christ

2. The Body of Christ

Check the scriptures on these and you will find
the 'function' of the 'Universal Church'.

In the SBC (Southern Baptist Convention)
I'm a member of an SBC Church.

The SBC Church of which I am a member is a member of:

1. The Union Association
2. The General Baptist Convention of Oklahoma (GBCO)
3. The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC)

The SBC Union Association of which I am a member is a member of:

1. The General Baptist Convention of Oklahoma (GBCO)
2. The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC)

The General Baptist Convention of Oklahoma (GBCO) is a member of:

1. The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC)

Unlike that,
I am a member of a local SBC church,
I am a member of the 'Universal Church'.

And this hasn't changed in the 55 years I've been a member
of the 'Universal Church'.
(I have changed local churches. Remember the old Church
Covenants? I agreed to move my membership when I moved
my job, my residence, etc.

 

I'm not making myself clear. What does the "Universal" church DO?

If its purpose is to glorify God, and exist for his good pleasure, seems to me that something is required of it besides just existing. So what does it do that glorifies God and gives him pleasure?

 

Read the Bible and all of your questions will be answered. There is nothing to debate on that.

 

Quote: Originally Posted by Tom Butler
I'm not making myself clear. What does the "Universal" church DO?

If its purpose is to glorify God, and exist for his good pleasure, seems to me that something is required of it besides just existing. So what does it do that glorifies God and gives him pleasure?

I have, and fail to find anything. Help me out.

BTW, one does not end a debate by unilaterally declaring that there's nothing to debate about. I agree that some things in the Bible are settled, but this is not oe of them.

I contend that the "universal" church is imaginary and useless, and that's the end of the debate. See what I mean?

 

In a word - Love- Because the Father loves the Son and love needs no reason apart from the object of that love.

It's the Church of Matthew 16 where the Son of God says "I will build my church".

It's the Church of His beloved Son

NKJV

John 3:35 The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into His hand.​

John 8:29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.


HankD

 

Let me try again.

When Jesus gave his great commission to the assembled disciples (the first church, by the way), he gave them a list of things to do. He told them to make disciples, baptize, teach them what he taught. So, local churches DO things--tangible, visible things.

What does the "universal" church DO?

Will it assemble today, the Lord's day?
Will it have a Bible study today?
Will it worship today?
Will it take up an offering today?
Will it send missionaries and evangelists from its midst?
Will it baptize anybody today?

Every one of us who goes to church today will go to a place where people assemble for Bible study and worship. A church assembles and does things designed to promote love among its members, give God pleasure and glorify him. So my question again is......(see above).

 

Tom, I think this difference is mostly semantic, a distinction which is in the choice of words.

In this we (well "I" anyway) can agree, that the local church is by far the emphasis of the scriptural doctrine of the "ekklesia" especially since we are yet in the flesh and have the limits of this mortal body.

Perhaps when we see Jesus in His glory in heaven in our resurrected body we will "see" the Universal Church from the ages past as one entity.

HankD

 

I think what Brother Tom is saying is that although the universal church exists in the framework of all true believers which obviously transcends denomination and any other man made barrier, what is its function compared to the local church?

The local church carries out the Lords work by spreading the Gospel, missions, helping the poor, nurturing the flock, using tithes and offerings to further the Kingdom, encouraging each other, fellowship, learning from the Word, and numerous other ministries. This is carried out in the framework of the local church. I think the point is, in this setting, what does the universal church do?

Also, the local church sets policy for how ministries are carried out and the local church is governed. As an example, in the discussions above, the local church sets how communion will be administered, not the universal church.

 

saturneptune, you've got it about right. Compared to the local church, what does the universal church do?

The answer, of course is nothing. The universal church, therefore, is imaginary.

 

I disagree Tom. I can compromise with "imagery" but not "imaginary" in the traditional sense of that word.

If we dismiss the fact that it is the Church that is delared to be built by the Son of God (and for that reason alone it glorifies God) in Matthew 16 and that the Father loves the Son and the Church it pleases Him as it's purpose as the collective Body of the redeemed of the NT age, then yes, I suppose it can be minimized as "imaginary".

Jesus makes it personal and calls it "my church", not "the church" or "my churches" built upon Him (The Rock) as it's one foundation.

Because of that, I Personally can't let that statement ("The universal church, therefore, is imaginary") go without comment.

I will admit that I don't particularly like the phrase "Universal Church" but I dont have a phrase other then the "Body" of Christ or the "Bride" of Christ as signifying the Church seen only by God and which is the saved of the one Body/Bride of Christ. That IMO is the "Church" of Matthew 13 of which the gates of hell will not prevail.

It won't have to be involved in any of those things of which you listed because they all speak of earthly things which are present and before the "redemption of the body" of which we all await.

To repeat, it's purpose is to give pure glory, honor, worship and love to God for all eternity by the redeemed of His Son.

In the particulars of what we will do as the Church we can't know yet.

1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.​

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.​

HankD

 

Hank, the way I read Matthew 16, the church which Jesus said he would build is the one he established early in his earthly ministry. His 12 disciples were the material of that church. Jesus did not establish some nebulous entity; he founded an assembly which had organization, a mission, later a great commission, ordinances, and officers.

The great commission was not given to the "universal church." It was given to a specific assembly and those assemblies which came afterward.

In more than one, Paul referred to the local church he was writing to as "the church." Not "a" church, but "the" church. Acts 20:28, the elders of the congregaton at Ephesus were described as overseers of the church of God.

I do see a great general assembly in the Revelation, the one true Church. Again, it's not an imaginary entity. It's an assembly.

There is a generic reference to the church, speaking in the same way we speak of "the family." But whatever happens to the church, or the family, happens only to specific churches and famlies.

 

Where are the elders and deacons in Jesus' ministry in establishing a church?

 

Fair question.

Jesus himself was the elder. I Peter 2:25--Peter described him as a Shepherd and Bishop.

Deacons came along in Acts, but during Jesus earthly ministry, the twelve served that function. Example: The feeding of the 5,000.

Jesus himself handled all the teaching functions, but in Acts, we find that the apostles now had that responsibility, and wanted to devote full-time. Thus deacons were chosen to handle the serving chores.