Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by 3AngelsMom, Jan 29, 2003.
Someone said something in another post that made me wonder.
Why do some churches do this?
Because it signifies the commitment that parents make to dedicate their children to God. It follows the same tradition that circumcision of infants did in the OT.
It also washes away the stain of original sin.
Baptism leaves an indelible mark on a person's soul, marking them as a child of God.
Couple questoins for you.
Does a baby need God to be saved, i.e. to enter the kingdom of heaven?
Have you ever heard of original sin?
Has a baby ever recieved the Holy Spirit?
Can a baby recieve the Holy Spirit?
I am most concerned with the last two so if you could give them a little attention, that would be great. All four would certainly put you in the bonus.
[ January 29, 2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: thessalonian ]
Because they don't know scripture...
Baby Baptism is totally unbiblical, and never found in the scriptures...
and to you who say it washes away sin, you're wrong also...
First, it is quite clear from such passages as Acts 15 and Romans 4 that no external act is necessary for salvation. Salvation is by divine grace through faith alone (Romans 3:22, 24, 25, 26, 28, 30; 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 3:9, etc.).
If baptism were necessary for salvation, we would expect to find it stressed whenever the gospel is presented in Scripture. That is not the case, however. Peter mentioned baptism in his sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38). However, in his sermon from Solomon's portico in the Temple (Acts 3:12-26), Peter makes no reference to baptism, but links forgiveness of sin to repentance (3:19). If baptism is necessary for the forgiveness of sin, why didn't Peter say so in Acts 3
1. Babies are sinless. They are not sinners until they know the law, and break it anyway. (Paul taught this)
2. Yes, I think it is a pretty unscriptural idea. Adam and Eve sinned, so DEATH passed on all men, for all have sinned. That doesn't mean that we are responsible for their sin.
3. Huh? TO have a baby there must be 2 things present 'dust' + 'breath' and that makes a 'living soul'. The dust is simply the elements of the earth, and the breath, well that IS the Spirit of God.
4. Can you MAKE a baby receive it by sprinkling them with water? People cannot choose salvation for other people.
I have one for you:
Where does it say in the Bible to sprinkle babies?
Baby Baptism is totally unbiblical, and never found in the scriptures...
Read your Bible a little more carefully. Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.
In the NT, Lydia was converted by Paul’s preaching and "She was baptized, with her household" (Acts 16:15). The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized along with his household: "the same hour of the night ... he was baptized, with all his family" (Acts 16:33). And in Corinthians, Paul recalled that, "I did baptize also the household of Stephanas" (1 Cor. 1:16).
In all these cases, whole households or families were baptized. This means more than just the spouse; the children too were included. If the text of Acts referred simply to the Philippian jailer and his wife, then we would read that "he and his wife were baptized," but we do not. Thus his children must have been baptized as well. The same applies to the other cases of household baptism in Scripture. Granted, we do not know the exact age of the children; they may have been past the age of reason, rather than infants. Then again, they could have been babes in arms. More probably, there were both younger and older children.
[ January 29, 2003, 08:16 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
Baptism is a public statement of your decision to follow Christ and babies can't make that choice, so they should not be baptised. I was "baptised" as an infant, but of course it was not true baptism. I got baptized for real just last year.
At our church now, we dedicate infants, we don't baptize them. Which means that the parents just promise to raise the child as a Christian. Now our denomination actually does believe in baptism of infants, but the particular church I am in does not. We're kinda rebels!!!! LOL When my nephew was dedicated, my grandmother(who is Catholic) was there and afterwards she said ," he wasn't really baptised. You still need to have him baptised!" She actually thinks that if a baby dies without being baptised that they will go to Hell!!!! I said, "Grammy, what kind of God would send a little baby to Hell for not bein baptised when the baby has no choice in the matter?" She never really answered me.
I don't have a whole bunch of time but i did want to contribute, so i will state upfront I used somebodyelse's work.
Suppose for a moment that there was a doctor who had
such incredible talent that he could prevent people from
dying,and bring those who had died back to life,never to
die again. Just imagine how people would do whatever they
could to be treated by this doctor! Now consider that in Holy
Baptism,God actually does give us the gift of eternal life! Let’s
learn more about this marvelous blessing.
What is Baptism?
Baptism is not just plain water,but it is the water included in
God’s command and combined with God’s Word.1
What’s so special about a handful of simple water?
Nothing,until God connects His Word to it! In Baptism,that is
exactly what God is doing.He combines His life-creating and
life-giving Word with the waters of Holy Baptism,and thereby
we are born again of water and the Spirit (John 3:5).
What is that Word of God?
Christ our Lord says in the last chapter of Matthew:
“Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them
in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”
Our Lord commands Baptism.It is not optional,nor is it
simply a nice “extra.”God’s Word takes on many forms,according
to His good and gracious will. The Word is preached,
taught,and proclaimed.It is read,studied and meditated on. It
is shared by Christians,with non-Christian and fellow believer,
alike. And it is that Word of God, His promise, that makes
Baptism what it is.
God Himself is present as His name is joined to the water,
with all His power and all His blessings of forgiveness,life and
salvation.Christ consecrates the water of Baptism with His
Word, so as we in Baptism stand with Christ in the water, the
Father calls us His beloved children,the Holy Spirit is given to
us,and heaven is opened to us.
Those who receive Baptism after they have been brought
to faith by the preaching or teaching of the Word also receive all
the blessings God has attached to Baptism.
What benefits does Baptism give?
It works forgiveness of sins,rescues from death and the devil,
and gives eternal salvation to all who believe this, as the words
and promises of God declare. Which are these words and
promises of God? Christ our Lord says in the last chapter of
Mark:“Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved,but whoever
does not believe will be condemned”(Mark 16:16).
In and through Baptism,God cleanses us from all of our
sins, snatches us from the power of Satan, and gives us everlasting
life.It is all God’s doing as He gives us His blessing.It is
His promise.In Baptism,our Triune God imparts to each of us
personally the gifts the Lord Jesus Christ won for the world
through His life,suffering,death,and resurrection.Please see
especially Gal.3:27;Col.1:13–14; 1 Peter 3:21;Titus 3:5–7 and
How can water do such great things?
Certainly not just water,but the word of God in and with the
water does these things, along with the faith which trusts this
word of God in the water. For without God’s Word the water is
plain water and no Baptism.But with the word of God it is a
Baptism,that is,a life-giving water,rich in grace,and a washing
of the new birth in the Holy Spirit,as St.Paul says in Titus,chapter
three: “He saved us through the washing of rebirth and
renewal in the Holy Spirit,whom He poured out on us generously
through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that,having been justified by
His grace,we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.
This is a trustworthy saying”(Titus 3:5–8).
Of course,simple water can’t do such great things,but the
water of Baptism is not simple water! Baptism is one very special
way God delivers to us the blessings Christ won for us.
Baptism is not something we do, but something God does.
Therefore, it is far more than a symbol. It is a sacred act in
which God Himself is at work forgiving sins,giving new life in
Christ and bestowing on us the Holy Spirit with all ofHis gifts.
Baptism gives us the faith through which we receive these
gifts.God the Holy Spirit works faith in the promises attached
What does such baptizing with water indicate?
It indicates that the Old Adam in us should by daily contrition
and repentance be drowned and die with all sins and evil
desires, and that a new man should daily emerge and arise to
live before God in righteousness and purity forever.Where is this
written? St.Paul writes in Romans chapter six:“We were there-
fore buried with Him through Baptism into death in order that,
just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the
Father,we too may live a new life”(Rom.6:4).
In Baptism we are buried with Christ,and in Baptism we
are raised with Christ.His death and resurrection are made our
own,and because of that fact,through our entire life,we are able
to say,“I am baptized!”Having been buried with Christ into His
death we do not have to be afraid of the tomb in which we will
rest one day. Christ has already been there. In Holy Baptism
we have passed through His grave into His resurrection.
As Luther says in his Large Catechism,“If I am baptized,I
have the promise that I shall be saved and have eternal life,
both in soul and body. ...No greater jewel can adorn our body
and soul than Baptism. ...Baptism is a treasure which God
gives us and faith grasps,just as the Lord Christ upon the cross
is not a human work,but a treasure comprehended and offered
to us in the Word and received by faith.”
What does Baptism have to do with our daily life?
Everything! Our entire life is a life lived trusting in the
promises of God,given to us in and through Holy Baptism.We
are constantly returning to Baptism.In moments of temptation
and suffering in our lives,when all seems to be crashing
down on us,and in particular in those moments when our sin
and the guilt of those sins haunt us,we are able,as Luther says,
to “Pull out our Baptism and wave it under the devil’s nose and
say,‘I am baptized. ...I have God’s bath.It is Christ’s own blood.’
It is a bath blessed and mixed with the blood of Christ.”2 We
can’t return to the cross of Christ,nor should we attempt to
imagine ourselves back there.No,we turn instead to the “here
and now”reality of God’s work in our lives.We return to our
Baptism.For it was there and then that God buried us with
Christ and raised us with Him to a new life.
In his Large Catechism, Luther says,“Every Christian has
enough to study and to practice all his life. He always has
enough to do to believe firmly what Baptism promises and
brings—victory over death and the devil,forgiveness of sins,
God’s grace, the entire Christ, and the Holy Spirit with His
gifts.”And:“If you live in repentance,therefore,you are walking
in Baptism,which not only announces this new life,but also
produces,begins and promotes it. In Baptism we are given the
grace,Spirit and power to suppress the old man, so that the
new man may come forth and grow strong.Therefore,Baptism
remains forever. ...Repentance,therefore,is nothing else than
a return and approach to Baptism.”
Why are infants and young children baptized?
They are baptized for the same reason adults are baptized
—because of the command and promise of God.What is
promised in Baptism is given to all who receive it; therefore,
infants and young children also have the promise of God.They,
too, are made children of God.They, too, are included in the
words “all nations”(Matt.28:19). Jesus specifically invites little
children to come to Him (Luke 18:15–17).But most important,
as sinners,infants need what Baptism gives.
By His word,God created all that is seen and unseen.By
His word,our Lord Christ called a dead man from the tomb
(John 11:43–44).The unborn child,John the Baptist,leaped in
his mother’s womb when he heard the word of God (Luke
1:41–44).Why is there any doubt that in and through the Word
and the promise of Baptism,God works a similar gift of faith
in the infant? If we misunderstand Baptism to be our work,
then we will always cast doubt on it.When we recognize that it
is not our work,but God’s gracious promise and work,we realize
that infants are to be baptized and receive the treasures
offered in and through Baptism.
Sadly, there are individuals and church bodies that deny
Baptism to young children and infants.They do not believe
that these little ones need what Holy Baptism gives.They do
not believe what the Bible teaches so clearly,namely,that God
saves us through Baptism.As a result of these false teachings,
they deny both to themselves and to others the power,blessing
and comfort of Holy Baptism.That is tragic, for it is a most
serious offense against God to deny what He plainly declares in
His Word: “The promise is for you and your children”(Acts
2:39) and “Baptism now saves you”(1 Peter 3:21).
“We see what a great and excellent thing Baptism is,which
snatches us from the jaws of the devil and makes God our
own,overcomes and takes away sin and daily strengthens the
new man.It always remains until we pass from this present
misery to eternal glory”(Large Catechism).
The meaning, power and promise of Holy Baptism rest
entirely on the One who lived perfectly in our place and who
suffered and died as the sacrificial ransom for the sins of the
world.He rose victorious over death and the grave. In Holy
Baptism,we receive all the blessings of Christ’s atoning sacri-
fice.Thank God for His gift of Holy Baptism!
1.The words in italics are from Luther’s Small Catechism.
2. WA 47:651,10-19,32-36.
The Lutheran Church—Missouri Synod
Baptism is only of a purpose if it is by choice, there is no biblical precedent to baptise anyone who has not chosen to be.
The churches these days seem to have dedications rather than infant baptism, which would in my eyes be a better idea.
When we are born into this world, our souls are void of the indwelling presence of the Blessed Trinity. This is what we call "Original Sin", and it is due to the loss of grace mankind experienced in the sin of Adam. Paul speaks about this in Romans 5. God the Father, in the sacrament of baptism, infuses his own divine life into our souls through the power of the Holy Spirit and makes us his sons in the One, Eternal, Divine Son, Jesus Christ.
That is why babies are baptized.
One of the greatest theologians of the early Church, St. Ireaneus, the Bishop of Lyons, Gaul, wrote this about baptism in A.D. 190 thus expressing the doctrine of the entire Catholic Church in his day, "‘And Naaman dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but this served as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment 34).
For more information about the Scriptural foundations of infant baptism as well as its history, please visit:
Baptism gets you all wet from head to toe when done properly. It does nothing to regenerate the soul. It may be of some spiritual benefit to the individual in the joy of obeying the lord's command. It is the perfect testimony of being dead to sins and raised to newness of life.
Babies get shortchanged. They barely get wet, often cry and it does absolutely nothing for their souls.
So you are going to deny the words in Romans when it says that we are baptized into Christ's death and ressurrection, and the words in 1 Pt, baptism now saves you. Are you willing to deny the promise of God? To deny that Baptism is of benefit in creating faith and delivering the promise of salvation is to deny the power and efficacy of the Word of God. If the Word of God is powerless then why do you read the bible, it won't do you any good.
If the're raised in a Christian home and come to receive Christ some day, they rejoice at that time to know that loving parents had them babtized.
Got any scripture to back this up ? I thought the only thing that could remove sin is the Blood of Christ.
And where is this mark on the soul left by baptism ? Where is that mentioned ?
[ January 30, 2003, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]
LaRae wrote, "[Baptism] washes away the stain of original sin." and you asked, "Got any scripture to back this up ? I thought the only thing that could remove sin is the Blood of Christ."
Yes, of course.
Luke records in Acts 22:16, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name."
God bless you,
Don't break out that hammer quite yet,
Acts 22:16, "And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name."
It looks to me like the sins are washed away by calling on his name, and the baptism is a symbolic act.
And thank you, in advance, for agreeing with me that Luke wrote the Acts of the Apostles.
1. Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4. And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5. And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.
6. For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8. But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
10. For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13. (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15. But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20. Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21. That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Where does that say that BABIES are carrying the sin of Adam? For that matter, where does it say that Anyone is carrying the sin of Adam?
All I saw was that DEATH was passed to all men, not because of Adam's sin but because ALL have sinned.
So if the Baby has not sinned, Death has not passed upon it. (by that I do not mean physical death)
1. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17. But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
19. I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
20. For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
21. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
22. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
23. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
We are free from sin through submission to Christ. NOT BAPTISM. Did you catch the first part? That they were SINNERS before baptism. AND they were BURIED with Him, now, unless burials have changed and they are now just sprinkling a little dirt on the coffin, infant baptism is not correct, or scriptural.
And here is the kicker. WHY babies can't be sinners. Unless you have a really smart and LITERATE baby:
1. Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?
2. For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
3. So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
4. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12. Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.
14. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15. For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25. I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
That means that UNTIL someone KNOWS the law, NOTHING they do is sin. They are still Spiritually alive until they sin willfully.
Acts 17: 29. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31. Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
So a baby is not born with sin, and thus at some point decides to sin. So each human refalls into sin.
Does that mean that some sinless baby may NOT fall into sin?
If we aren't born into sin, then we could not fall into sin, which negates the need for a savior.
[ January 30, 2003, 01:12 AM: Message edited by: GraceSaves ]