Barack Obama - Info and Opinion

Discussion in 'Politics' started by bound, Jul 17, 2007.

  1. bound

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    Salve!

    Okay, I've been reading and listening to a lot coming out of the Obama Camp and I at least like more of what I am hearing from them than what I'm hearing from the Clinton Camp.

    My question is does anyone know any reason why we, as Christians, "shouldn't" vote for Barack Obama?

    Please offer reasonable objections...

    Thanks you and God Bless.
     
  2. J. Jump

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    Yes. We as Christians have no calling to be involved in the political process of a world system in which we do not belong. And if that's not enough God said He is going to put into office the exact person He wants in there, so there is no need for us to be invovled.

    There's only a 50-50 chance that you are going to vote for the "right" person and there's a 50-50 chance you are going to directly defy God.

    I think it would just be easier to allow God to handle what He said He was going to handle, because my vote doesn't mean a hill of beans :).
     
  3. ShotGunWillie

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    For those of us who do decide to vote, for local or national government positions, I think it is extremely important to look at some top issues. We as Christians need to make our voices heard loud in clear in every aspect of life. I think that Christians need to be involved in the policitcal system (or at least voting). I think that is part of the problem with the country we live in today.

    These are my personal issues I want to make certain the candidate that I chose to vote for completely agree upon prior to nominating them to represent me and this country. Duncan Hunter and I are in agreeance on these issues.

    1. What is their stance on abortion?
    2. What is their stance on the complete Sodomite Agenda?
    3. What is their stance on Israel?
    4. What is their stance on immigration?
    5. What is their stance on Gun Control?

    I may have forgotten an issue or two, but this is what I have thus far.

    Clinton, Obama, Rudy, Mit, McCain, Edwards, count them out in my book. I believe that true Christians would not dare cast a vote in favor of someone or in support of someone who believes in the rights of sodomites and believe abortion is a personal choice that is to be made by the mother, that is a cop-out.
     
  4. Rufus_1611

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    As a Christian I object to...

    ...his association to the Trinity United Church of Christ which is a racist, pro-sodomy, pro-abortion organization.

    ...his advocacy for killing babies, including partially birthed ones.

    ...his support of "gay unions" and "gay equality".

    ...his rewarding lawlessness via allowing illegal aliens to participate in Social Security etc. and earned citizenship.

    ...his belief that the Constitution is a living document which explains why he's opposed to the 2nd amendment and favors gun control.

    He has a couple of things going for him...

    ...he's opposed to the Use of Military Force in Iraq.

    ...he recognizes that the Patriot Act is an attack on civil liberties.

    However, his wickedness far outweighs his good, in my view.
     
  5. preachinjesus

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    I like Senator Obama. I like that he is a professing and practicing Christian. I like that he is sincere (or appears to be) about uniting people. I like that Senator Obama talks about helping the poor, and then does something about it. I like that he wants to engage in dialogue. I like that he cares about reaching across the aisle to find solutions to world issues like hunger, poverty, AIDS crisis, etc.

    You've asked a very difficult question because many here and in our churches believe that our vote is more a question of Christian duty than anything else. We have told them (wrongly) from our pulpits that we can boil down the issues to black and white (sorry, no pun intended) issues which we cannot find common ground on.

    If the failure of the Moral Majority of the last twenty years has taught us anything it is that the Church cannot be involved with legislating our beliefs and expect social change. We cannot decide to legislate sin our of laws because it will still exist in our hearts. The Christian Right (which maybe I'm a member of, I don't know anymore) has loudly proclaimed "You are either with us or against us" and if you won't follow our laws we don't want you. We have, arrogantly, allowed politicians to corrupt our churches and dull our discernment of flawed character for perceived seat at the table. And worse, we have said that we can legislate our beliefs into law and then have nothing to do with the lawbreakers. We should be first here to minister to those who need healing and lastly to those who want to corrupt us with smooth words to satisfy our itching ears.

    I will never tell someone to vote for or against someone in an election. It is not my place as a minister to do so. I have my beliefs about government and governence. In the 30 years since Roe we have seen that legislating or attempting legislate will never change hearts...only the Gospel can do that.

    Politics bloodies the Bride of Christ. We should do everything we can to avoid it. btw...I heartily recommend The Myth of a Christian Nation by Greg Boyd for some compelling thoughts. :)
     
  6. Analgesic

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    I'll take the same five issues and rephrase the questions asked about them from the perspective of someone (me) who rather likes Obama.

    1. What is their stance on the Supreme Court?
    2. What is their stance on human rights?
    3. What is their stance on the Middle East?
    4. What is their stance on illegal immigration?
    5. What is their stance on fiscal and monetary management?
     
  7. J. Jump

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    So I see you are a gambling man. Let me ask you this . . . if you vote for the wrong person do you think God will just give you an attaboy for trying to oppose Him?
     
  8. preachinjesus

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    That is probably the scariest line in all of the replies. Why these several issues? Why are these the "top" of your political and (apparently) spiritual hit list when they never even crossed the lips of Christ while He was doing His ministry amongst people?

    What if my Christianity isn't founded on these issues and rather I am worried about other issues that are more profound as I view them or I simply don't agree with your stance. I my opinion, you can be completely Christian and still affirm the central tennents of many "liberal" political choices while denying the actual actions that take place in them.

    While I am extremely conservative politically, I don't believe we need to use our mutual faith as a weapon to beat someone down who happens to disagree with us over some issues.
     
  9. saturneptune

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    Excellent post Willey, and makes crystal clear the state of the two parties. Personally I think we are held accountable for our votes. That is why the last two elections bother me. This tired old mindset that we HAVE to elect one of the two major candidates has got to go and is going to be our ruin. What have you accomplished if you vote for a republican from the pits of hell to not elect a democrat from the pits of hell?
     
  10. ShotGunWillie

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    I agree with the above statements.

    I don't know his heart, but I know what he believes and shows. I find it hard to believe that a Christian would be for taking innocent lives because they are an inconvenience on the mother (babies). I find it hard to believe that a man who is a member of a "Christian Church" supports all things sodomite (homosexual).

    By looking at the fruits of his labor or what he would love to be fruits of his labor, I can clearly see he does not represent Christ in his actions or his words.

    Profession Christian is all he is, he is not practicing. The church he is a member of is far from Christian.
     
  11. ShotGunWillie

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    Very few things seperate the Dems from the Republicans these days. There are still some good Christian men in office and running for higher positions in office. Perhaps they will create a new party for Christians to stand behind, since those in the other parties, can't seem to stand for Christians.
     
  12. Rufus_1611

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    "Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother." - Jesus​
     
  13. ShotGunWillie

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    Nope, I think God knows my heart was in the right place, I vote for the man I think he would have me to vote for and I vote for a like minded person. God puts all leaders in charge and positions of authority and hand picks them. God doesn't say we have to agree with the person he put in charge, meaning this, we aren't disagreeing with God, but we can disagree with the person in charge.

    King Nebuchadnezzar was appointed by God to his position to rule over the entire known world. He chose the government, he chose the religion for the people, he chose everything, he was placed there by God, hand picked. And he openly opposed the God of the Jews. So, when the Hebrews decided to buck against the system and go against the king, were they going against God because he placed Nebuchadnezzar in that position?
     
  14. ShotGunWillie

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    What could possibly be more profound than the taking of innocent lives and homosexuals running the country? Health Care Reform? Social Security?

    Liberal Views and True Christianity don't really go together do they. Wouldn't compromise and becomming luke warm play a major factor in this?

    Why support the actions of the liberals and their agenda by voting them into office and at the same time deny their actual actions?

    Are you?
     
  15. pinoybaptist

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    Nothing "Christian" based in what I'll say:

    I don't like him, period.
    No Scripture against that, no Scripture for that, no law against that, either.

    My vote, and that of my friends, relatives, and family, goes to either Fred Thompson, or Ron Paul.
     
  16. J. Jump

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    If your heart was in the right place then you would have voted for the right person. Let's just take a real word example. Did you vote for Bill Clinton in either of the two elections? I would be surprised if you said yes.

    Now since you voted against Bill Clinton you were directly violating God's plans, because it was obviously within His plans for Bill Clinton to be President of the United States both times.

    Once again do you think God is just going to slap you on the back and say nice try ole boy get'em next time?

    EXACTLY! That's the WHOLE point. So why do you need to worry about voting. God said I got this. Why do you or I or anyone else need to mingle in it? That doesn't make the least bit of sense.

    If you are speaking against the President of the United States you are speaking against God's very elect. Now there's something for all of us to think about, indcluding myself! So in essence yes when you disagree with your leaders you are disagreeing with God, because He's the one that put them there.

    No. The only time in Scripture we are given a mandate to disobey authority is if we are asked to do or beleive something that goes against Scripture. And then we are told to take a stand for God. But it never says we are to get involved with the political process in order to take our stand or to make our voices heard.
     
  17. preachinjesus

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    Look at what you just did. You marginalized and exacerbated a comment and immediately put super-evangelical spin on it. This is exactly what I am talking about. We choose positions, get in our corners, and coming out swinging at anyone who voices a perceived difference of opinion.

    Here's the big thing. My huge point is it doesn't matter what we legislate we can't force life change on people and sell off our birthright as the Church when we partner with politicians to force Christian values on an unchurched, post-Christian society.



    Now we get into a labels game. What is "liberal" and what is "true Christianity"? It is a difference of degrees.

    I'd suggest that feeding the poor, clothing the naked, and giving shelter to the homeless is inherently Christian. I'd even take it a step further and suggest that it is Christian to provide for the widows and orphans in need. Now when a "liberal" does this they get lambasted...because they have seen the absolute failure of the Church to do so and the government has stepped in and it's called Welfare and Medicare and Social Security...yet in the NT it's called James 1:27.


    The hardest issue is that we start playing the labels game and force people to take positions, or foist positions on people when it isn't our business to do so.



    Who are the liberals and who are the conservatives? In Europe you'll find a completely different definition. Why must there be categories?

    Is not the point of a federal constitutional republic you can vote for that person who will represent you in office and not the party they are associated with?

    The minute we believers think that the Republican Party is a) our friend, b) respects us, or c) shares our true values we lie to ourselves and make a harlot of our pulpits. Same with the Democratic Party.

    Politics isn't the answer, it absolutely isn't the answer. Taking the Gospel to people and finding ways to meet their needs before government intervention happens is where the Church should be. We shouldn't be protesting abortion clinics we should be offering alternatives to those women before they even get there. The Church should be the place where people turn to get their true needs met. If we believe legislating a particular brand of theology or ideology is going to accomplish that we have lost the lessons of the failure of the political activism of the Christian Right.

    The Church should be advocating Christ...not candidate XYZ. And it is a pox on our beliefs to suggest we can do so.



    Well we don't know each other and will not meet this side of eternity (of course many around here probably now believe I won't be on the Heavenly side I guess...maybe that makes my point) but I assure you I am probably more conservative than most here. The dangerous thing about my conservativism is I know why I am conservative and haven't bought the misguided message from the RNC or any other political think tank group.

    I'm just asking us to stop making categories to deny people access to forgiveness and true grace..stop polarizing our congregations on worldly issues and start making efforts to embrace graceful living.
     
  18. preachinjesus

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    A bit of a postscript here...

    I find it truly disheartening that so many evangelical, conservative Christians say they want a candidate that is a fine conservative, strong Christian and ignore Mike Huckabee. That blows my mind. Here is a guy who is an ordained Baptist minister, who is a tride and true conservative, has led thousands to Christ through his ministry and personally, is a strict biblicist, and has been through the evangelical ringer in terms of education but most "conservative Christians" won't give him a second glance because he "isn't a true candidate" or "doesn't have the political muscle"...

    that is a prime example of evangelicals playing politics and ignoring their true Christian beliefs...and is exactly what I'm talking about...
     
  19. Rufus_1611

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    If Huckabee cared about observing the borders of Iraq (pro-war) and observing the borders of the United States of America (pro-amnesty) he might be a candidate worthy of consideration.
     
  20. ShotGunWillie

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    I haven't heard mention of Duncan Hunter in many Christian circles either. He is right on concerning, abortion, sodomite rights, and illegal immigration.

    I have heard that before
     

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