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Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by thisnumbersdisconnected, Jan 17, 2014.

  1. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    That has not been evident in your many posts.
    There is no such thing as "Calvin's five points" TND. Why do you need to continually have this pointed out to you?
     
  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Doesn't that tell you something.....that's how he sees it. To him...and to many, Doctrines of Grace are manufacured (by Calvinists)....therefore they don't recognize its validity to scripture.
     
  3. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    That's likely because you think that what is commonly referred to as Calvinism is all there is to Reformed theology, which goes so far beyond what is discussed on here as to render the opinions expressed as the equivalent of being uninformed and infantile, as though the posters know nothing but these ...
    ... which, as you well know, is shorthand terminology not meant to label the five points as Calvin's, but to refer to the teaching that is commonly called "Calvinism." And it has been I, not you, who has consistently pointed out that Reformed theology is far more extensive, and John Calvin wrote far more broadly on numerous other topics, than what is boiled down in the five points. To look at your posts and those of others, one would think that Reformed theology or Calvin's writings are nothing more than the five points.
     
    #43 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jan 20, 2014
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  4. ktn4eg

    ktn4eg New Member

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    Although I do tend to believe (at least to some extent) in the "Doctrines of Grace," I was wondering if John Calvin ever wrote (or at least commented on) the subject of baptism (i.e., the proper subject, the proper mode, and the proper authority to administer this very important ordinance)?
     
  5. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Yes, unfortunately for those who revere him, he did.

    John Calvin: Argument for Infant Baptism
     
    #45 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jan 20, 2014
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  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    To the woodshed with you S/N.:tonofbricks::tonofbricks::tonofbricks: :tonofbricks:
     
  7. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Reformed theology is Calvinism. And you do not embrace much of it.
    Yet you said"Calvin's five points."
    You are intentionally dishonest. Exceptionally so.
     
    #47 Rippon, Jan 20, 2014
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  8. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    This proves you choose to read and repeat, rather than actually investigate the two for yourself. By affirming Reformed theology, a person is implicitly denying certain other theologies, such as Catholic theology (which Reformed theology rose in opposition to) and Arminian theology (which later rose in opposition to Reformed theology). While Calvinism predates Arminianism, it was only codified in the five points after the rise of Arminianism. There is a sense in which Calvinism is both a cause of and the reaction to Arminianism. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say that Arminianism is a response to Reformed theology, and the codification of Calvinism is a response to Arminianism. The common usage of "Reformed theology" and "Calvinism" as interchangeable -- primarily by Calvinists -- is misleading, and wrong. There are differences, and the boiling down of Calvinism to the five points is just as misleading and wrong, given Calvin's writings were so much more greatly encompassing than the focus of his so-called adherents today.
    For the reason I explained.
    The only one this thread that describes if the writer of the phrase.
     
  9. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Duh,as if that is news.
    And to emphasize that I have never done that I have given many examples.
    Calvinism is not the exact same thing as Calvin's writings. Are you so forgetful? Just a short while back you were extolling the virtues of Dr. Richard A.Muller who tried to explain that Calvinism is broader than merely a rehash of one individual's contribution i.e. John Calvin.
    Please try to rephrase whatever you want to convey.
     
  10. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    Perhaps you should do some reading of your own:
    http://www.mb-soft.com/believe/txc/reformed.htm


    Some of these individual churches have in their own statements of faith.
    "We believe in the five points of Calvin." They then proceed to list them and describe each one.

    For example:
    http://hnrc.org/our-beliefs
     
    #50 DHK, Jan 20, 2014
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  11. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    You can't seem to understand that I can admire Calvin and disagree with his conclusions about what was later called the five points. Muller, if you will recall, was making the point that Calvin wasn't truly a Calvinist, by the standards of what you and your friends -- who seem to extol Reformed theology above Christ Himself -- call "Calvinism" and/or Reformed theology.

    Yes, there is a reason I was trumpeting Muller's work: He knows Calvin is much bigger than Calvinism, but he also knows that he was wrong about several things, especially paedobaptism and transubstantiation, the latter of which Alister McGrath avers Calvin fell at a midpoint between Luther and Zwingli. Like Muller, I have to wonder how one can hold Calvin so high in regard almost to the exclusion of Christ and the Bible when he held to such wrong-headed doctrine. But also like Muller, I nonetheless embrace a lot of what Calvin taught and of that which he wrote.
    I'm pretty sure you're smart enough to figure it out.
     
  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Blasphemy is not going to aid you in your various quests on the BB.
    That much is true.
    And that is not in the category of Calvinism proper.
    You are confusing Calvin with Roman Catholicism here.

    And Luther,while insisting on consubstaniation sounded more like somone holding to transubstantiation. But Luther later agreed with Calvin's take on the ordinance.
    Unlike Dr. Muller you are totally wrong and absurd to an infinite degree. R.A.M. and you are not at agreement at all based on your infantile remarks.
    You still have not evidenced any proof of that at all.
     
  13. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Would it be fair to say Calvinistic Baptists are Protestants, but non-Calvinistic Baptists are not Protestants? :)
     
  14. thisnumbersdisconnected

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    Last I knew, blasphemy is the act of insulting or showing contempt or lack of reverence for God. So perhaps you'd like to explain that comment.
    Nice of you to notice.
    But relevant because of the propensity for you and others to limit Calvin to the discussion of the five points.
    Hardly. You are confused -- as was Calvin -- regarding transubstantiation and consubstantiation, which is nothing more than transubstantiation renamed.
    Irrelevant. I offer you this: Calvin: Short Treatise on the Lord's Supper
    The interesting thing is that Calvin here discusses the presence of Christ in terms of “substance.” Not only that, Calvin speaks of the “internal substance” being “conjoined with the visible signs.” This comes close to what Luther taught, but it is also virtually the same thing the Catholic Church taught, and still teaches. In the same treatise, Calvin later refers to transubstantiation as “the devil’s doctrine”. In this context, it seems that Calvin assumes that the Catholic Church teaches that the substances of bread and wine are “annihilated.” However, this is not what Catholics teach. They like to say "Grace perfects nature – it doesn’t destroy it." Saint Thomas Aquinas explained that the substance of bread and wine are not annihilated but transformed into the Body and Blood of Christ. Consubstantiation says Jesus is "with, in and under" the bread and wine. In other words, there is little to no difference between transformation and "becoming the substance of" the bread and wine. And go ahead, defend Calvin's view if you wish. He is still undeniably wrong.
    Your words don't make it so, and I am sure I am infinitely more familiar with what Muller actually thinks, believes, and teaches than your are. I at least knew where to post a reference to him, which is more than I can say about you in any of your posts that express an opinion. It is always unsupported, either biblically or via scholarship.
    Then you simply haven't been paying attention. Or, as I said, you believe Reformed theology and Calvinism both boil down to the five points. Either way, you haven't a clue.
     
    #54 thisnumbersdisconnected, Jan 20, 2014
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  15. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I have tried to speak plainly. Either you are not attuned to English basics or are intentionally muddling-up things. I suspect the latter.

    Calvin does not =Calvinism in totality. The five points are only a fraction of what is really biblical theology. Go to the 1689 for a fuller picture --not the five points or even the Canons of Dort.
    Dream on.
    You are intentionally bearing false witness. In the last hour or so I have given several of my quotes on my stance dating back to 2007 on the BB where I have repudiated that kind of thinking. But you continue your mendacious ways. There is no excuse for you.

    Let me give you another quote of mine from 2/2/11:

    "This needs to be repeated. Calvinism is a lot larger and more full-orbed than the famous 5 propositions. (And the famous T.U.L.I.P. is a severely shortened version of the decisions of the Synod of Dort.)"
     
    #55 Rippon, Jan 20, 2014
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  16. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    It may be useless to us but not to Jesus Christ. The universal Church will be revealed as His Chaste Bride, the New Jerusalem, at His return.
     
  17. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Totally agree, at the end times the Bride will be the church. There will be some former Catholics in heaven and Baptists in hell.
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Well said as TND has already indicated!
     
  19. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I have long contended that the Doctrines of Grace encompass much more than the 5 points!
     
  20. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    I do not appreciate you telling a friend of mine and a brother in Christ that he is intentionally bearing false witness. I also do not appreciate you demeaning his intelligence and his use of the English language. I demand you apologize to him.
     
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