BBF - Pro or Con?

Discussion in 'Pastoral Ministries' started by Dr. Bob, Apr 15, 2004.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
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    On another thread on seeking pastors, the BBFI was suggested as possible source. I have had only very poor experiences with the classic BBF "mentality" here in Wyoming.

    We've seen strong pastor-dictator, oriented toward the KJVo sect, shallow character, legalism/rules and culture of 1950 Texas brought into 2004 Wyoming - and highly independent, "lone ranger" attitude.

    Also the "good old boy" network (based around BBC Springfield, a school bilaterally supported) with speakers, missionaries, pastors, etc that are self-perpetuating.

    So these churches do their thing, quit fellowship and support of camps, etc, and the heritage of small inter-dependent churches in our state are slowly eroded.

    Pretty negative, eh? That's my experience. Would like to hear YOUR views - positive or negative.

    Thanks.
     
  2. jshurley04

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    Visited Montana a few years ago on a missions trip and fell in love with the state. The pastors that I did interact with at that time in that area were in an upheaval about the BBF/Heartland issue at the time. It is my understanding that the N.W. area is so out of reach to the rest of the general nation that not many go up there. Usually those that go that I know of are very independent and KJVO from previous teaching and out of the need to be independent because of a lack of churches. That is really all I know about the BBF in that area.

    As a Senior at BBC I am currently involved with classes that are currently discussin the topic of KJVO. As a fellowship we have taken the stand that our Bible of choice is the KJV, which there is nothing wrong with, and most professors will discuss resonable newer translations in a one on one discussion rather than risk looking like they are violating the policy of the school. The Fellowship officially takes the position of the KJV being the best for english translation. Many are studying other versions and are preparing for the day when the KJVO's either die off or simply go away. This is not a public stand however and would be rejected by the fellowship because of the problems the KJVO movement tend to cause within the fellowship.

    I have been an active part of churches for many years, I'm older than the average college senior, whose pastor has fellowshipped with the BBF. While all organizations have problems because we are all human and still like sheep, dumb as bricks, the BBF is making attempts to atleast mend fences in an effort to work together with like minded groups such as the Southwide Fellowship and the World Baptist Fellowship. While this is in no way an attempt to form any kind of merge, it is, however, an attempt to work towards a common goal in common areas with a combined and coordinated effort so that the resources can be used more effectively and efficiently.

    Having said that, I will graduate from BBC in May and will first attempt to stay out of jail (related to spanking my son, you may PM for general details about the felony). Afterwards I intend to pastor a church and fellowship with the BBF as a pastor, if our people decide to join in the efforts of the fellowship, great, if not, that's good too. BTW, since all groups are run by men all groups will have problems, I would rather fellowship with a group of fellows that I know and love and enjoy the good ones and put up with the idiots than to be a lone wolf. Why do you think I am a part of the BB? I love the interaction and ability to think through my beliefs and getting to know some great people while laughing at the people I don't care for as much (I try to be polite when I can).
     
  3. go2church

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    Growing up in a BBF church, having a dad that graduated from BBC and attending the former PCBBC for a year..I think that I have enough background to make a comment on the BBF.
    I would no longer want to be a part of the BBF, nor would I be allowed in, I am not dispensational and that is one of their articles of required belief.

    Basically they are a bunch of pretty good guys way to concerned about stupid stuff that in the big scheme of things don't mean anything. Honestly, the KJV is the most important thing you have to discuss in class? If women should or should not wear pants is open for serious discussion? They flaunt their independence, even though they vote for a president and vice-president, with various committees now forming. The BBF has had some of the brightest men to come along but most of them have left for many of the same reasons stated above. The missions support system is archaic, much like the KJV translation, and serverly hinders the overall missions efforts, that aren't all that culturally sensitive to begin with! Honestly, taking the KJV to Mexico, get real!

    Dr. Bob, I think your prespective is accurate.
     
  4. jshurley04

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    In reading your post it seems to me that you do not know as much as you think that you do. You seem to only spout the same things that you have heard other say and not investigated it for yourself. Pants? who cares, unless you are a part of the Heartland bunch. KJV to Mexico? Where do you get that from unless you are talking to a bunch of Heartlanders. So it is wrong to be a nationally organized fellowship of pastors who adhere to the basic laws of the land in regards to leadership? Let's get consistant if you are going to talk about something that you seem to know little of. As for the support system being archaic, I would think that the way it is done is the most efficient way possible and would dare any missions group to make funds available any quicker once they are in hand at the organizational office to those on the field. You remind me of several friends of mine who would rather believe the rumors and what they think in their own minds rather than to investigate things for themselves.

    BTW, you cannot produce any literature that says you have to sign here to be a member or that you believe exactly the way that we believe. If you want to join, show up at the meetings, if you want to leave, don't show up at the meetings. If you are non-dispensational then you are not consistant with scripture in your interpretation and hold to a flawed hermeneutic. Therefore you would probably not wish to join with those who hold the proper hermeneutics and proper scriptural interpretation.

    Just because we do not see eye to eye about some things does not mean that I am trying to correct you and what you teach in your church, that is between you and God. It also does not mean that we are prevented from fellowshipping together or from combining our efforts so that we may have a greater impact on the world for Christ's cause. If you choose not to fellowship in the BBFI, fine, but don't throw rocks at those who do. Unless you stray from the fundamentals of the faith we will always have a common ground (KJVO is NOT a fundamental of the faith) on which to fellowship and work together with.
     
  5. go2church

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    Bylaws

    ARTICLE III - AFFILIATION
    Affiliation with the Baptist Bible Fellowship International is open to any Baptist pastor of a supporting Baptist church believing in and adhering to the Word of God, on the basis of the Articles of Faith appended hereto. A supporting Baptist church is one that financially supports our missions or colleges

    Articles of Faith

    Of The Resurrection And Return Of Christ And Related Events
    We believe in and accept the sacred Scriptures upon these subjects at their face and full value. Of the Resurrection, we believe that Christ rose bodily "The third day according to the Scriptures"; that He ascended "to the right hand of the throne of God"; that He alone is our "merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God"; "that this same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven," bodily, personally, and visibly; that the "dead in Christ shall rise first"; that the living saints "shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump"; "that the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David"; and that "Christ shall reign a thousand years in righteousness until He hath put all enemies under His feet."
    Psalm 72:8; Isaiah 11:4-5; Matthew 24:27,42; Matthew 28:6-7; Mark 16:6,19; Luke 1:32; Luke 24:2,4-6,39,51; John 14:3; John 20:27; Acts 1:9,11; 1Corinthians 15:4; Philippians 4:20; 1Thessalonians 4:16; 1Timothy 2:5; Hebrews 2:17; 5:9; 8:1; 9:28; 12:2

    Baptist Bible College

    Approved Bible Text for Curriculum

    We agree God inspired the Bible in its original languages.
    By the 16th century, Wycliff and Tyndale had both translated the Bible into the English language. These were both considered acceptable translations.
    Through the efforts of the King of England, a new English translation was placed into the hands of common man.
    In time, the changes in word usage and punctuation necessitated several revisions.
    We believe our students should be undergirded by an unshakable faith in the Word of God; we believe the King James Version is God’s Word kept intact for the English-speaking people.
    This statement does not preclude the study of the individual Greek and Hebrew words in the original languages for the clarity of meaning.
    The Textus Receptus is the approved Greek text of our curriculum.

    Does this count as literature? BTW, I didn't say you had to sign anything, I said it was a required belief, which clearly it is. Also, I gave those as examples, I could have pointed to the problem of missionaries having to "justify" the support they recieve just about everytime there is a pastor change or the lack of any women involved in ANY type of leadership role within the BBFI, but then I guess you would just consider those rumors that I heard.
     
  6. Dr. Bob

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    Scariest part was the phrase "our missions or our colleges".

    Any time a group says "our", there is an element of control and de facto limitations. Don't like that about ANY denomination.

    "Our" negates "independent", right? Members of the BBFI (however they get to be members) lose a portion of the "ifb" label.
     
  7. jshurley04

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    Since it is a fellowship of pastors and a woman cannot scripturally hold the position of pastor, why on earth would a woman be a part of the leadership structure? As for the missionaries, what is wrong with accountability? Since a missionary is not a pastor on the foreign land there has to be some degree of accountability. So if you as a new pastor of an IBF church, you would not check up on the missioaries that your church supports? What if they have left the reservation and are holding hands and singing Kum Ba Ya with the Catholics? Since no church is ever required to support any missionary it would seem to me to be a correct action to check up on the things a church is involved in. Again, if you do not agree with the statement of faith of the fellowship that is fine, it is far better that it be published rather than hidden.
     
  8. jshurley04

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    Dr. Bob,

    I disagree with the simple use of a pronoun to describe a collective effort of independent churches or pastors. To say that it implies an element of control is incorrect, if there were to ever be any resemblence of control from fellowship to church then this fellowship would fracture and split overnight. The control goes the opposite way, from the church or pastor to the fellowship. That is one of the reasons that I believe sets us apart from any denominational form.

    As I have said before, it is an organization of men run by men attempting to do and fulfill God's will. Since men are involved, it will be imperfect, but I would rather have the interaction and fellowship than to attempt to be a lone ranger. I have just recently experienced rather strict seperation from friends and family and I do not care for it in the least. Just because I am a participant in the BBF does not mean that I cannot fellowship with any who are not a part.
     
  9. go2church

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    Well, since serving the BBF is not considered a pastoral position, why wouldn't you have women helping to lead? They don't have any ideas, thoughts or something of value to offer? Or are they just to make the tea and clean up after the men! They are probably about 55 to 65% of those involved! I did notice you didn't address the point you tried to bring up about the literature! Face it the BBF is a denomination, just like the current SBC, call it whatever you want. Quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, looks like a duck...what you got there my friend is a duck.
     
  10. SaggyWoman

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    uh, what is the BBF? Is it like the WWF??
     
  11. jshurley04

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    I'm sorry, I don't follow your logic. If a collection of pastors come together and form an organization to work collectively and they elect officers in order to fulfill the governments requirments for being a ta-exempt organization and it is only for pastors and since scripture prohibits a woman from holding the office of pastor, why would a woman be in position to be a part of the leadership of that group?

    Yes I did address the issue of literature in my response, please reread the post. Why on earth would they open themselves up for those who do not hold to scriptural truth to be a part of the fellowship? It acts as a filter, but is a passive filter that allows people to know where they stand rather than to hide it and deal with all the problems that come about because of it. But other than this one mention of what we believe there is still no membership dues, or forms or anything else that is to be filled out.

    A denomination is defined by its ability to control its churches through some form of ecclesiastical governing body. It is also defined as, in many cases, the owner of the property that the church sits on. In many cases, the pastors are appointed to the church rather than the church doing the selection process. There are simply too many differences to worry about, so it you want to think of it that way then be my guest. I only hope that you do not look at the scriptures with the same preconceptions otherwise your people and church will suffer in the longrun.
     
  12. jshurley04

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    It is the Baptist Bible Fellowship which is a collection of independent pastors of churches that come together for the edification and encouragement of each other as well as to combine resources to have a more effective work for God.

    In some cases Yes, we are like the WWF in that the divercity of the fellowship is broad enough to pull us both left and right in order to keep us moving straight as a group. Some people get overly passionate about some things that it is sometimes joked that next time we will set up a squared circle to settle the issues. [​IMG]
     
  13. Dr. Bob

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    Appreciate the good insights on the BBF from those who have experience and first-hand knowledge.

    Thanks.
     
  14. go2church

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    If you really thnk that the only reason that the officers are there is to fulfill the tax law, you my friend are walking around BBC with blinders on. Have you heard about the church planting push that they are now working on, that is new for the BBF. Once only churches started other churches, now the BBF is going to be starting churches...that is a denomination. Yes, some denominations own the property and appoint the ministers, but the two largest evangelical denominations, SBC and Assembly of God, do not! Whatever that is worth.
    If you noticed I mentioned ANY leadership position for women..time to let them out of the kitchen and around the table. The myth of it only being a fellowship for pastors really needs to die, it simply is not the truth.
    Quack, quack
     
  15. Pastor Larry

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    I was on staff at a BBF church for about three years. It was KJVO with virtually no dress standards. I took the teens to the BBF were one of the recurring skit themes was Wayne and Garth from Wayne's World. Musically, they were pretty tolerant. I still get the BBF Tribune for some reason.

    I have been very disappointed in the BBF and went in totally neutral because I didn't know anyhting about them when I went to that church. I have seen very little positive coming from their colleges. That is not to say that there isn't anything positive. I simply haven't seen it. I am sure there are good hearted men in that group and they have some good things going. I will never be a part of anything BBF again however.
     
  16. jshurley04

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    If you really thnk that the only reason that the officers are there is to fulfill the tax law, you my friend are walking around BBC with blinders on. Have you heard about the church planting push that they are now working on, that is new for the BBF. Once only churches started other churches, now the BBF is going to be starting churches...that is a denomination. Yes, some denominations own the property and appoint the ministers, but the two largest evangelical denominations, SBC and Assembly of God, do not! Whatever that is worth.
    If you noticed I mentioned ANY leadership position for women..time to let them out of the kitchen and around the table. The myth of it only being a fellowship for pastors really needs to die, it simply is not the truth.
    Quack, quack
    </font>[/QUOTE]So what you are saying then is that any missionary that uses a mission agency to go to the foreign field is really using a denominational organization? I suspect that if someone were to propose to your church a mutual agreement to combine resources to plant a church that you would accuse them of being denominational. I suppose that we can never encourage each other to do the work of the Lord again since it will lead to a denominational oversight of the church. Get real man, I have several friends that are currently starting churches and they do not recieve one dime from the fellowship, they receive it from local churches that they themselves have contacted or churches that the fellowship has provided them contact for. What in the world is wrong with an effort to start new home churches? We need more of it inorder to reach our own nation for Christ, unless you think that they are not a real church unless they do things the same way as they did in 1930. If we cannot encourage each other to do what is right, then why on earth do we bother speaking to each other?

    BTW, no it is not a new thing to make a push to plant churches, it is something that we used to do very well and have since fallen away from. From time to time everyone needs a reminder of what it is they should be doing, why do you think that we have 2 recognized holidays? To remind us of things that we get busy doing and tend to forget about sometimes.
     
  17. pinoybaptist

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    Saggy:

    I was sippin' coffee and thinkin' this is the best instant coffee I've made in all my years on this earth, and I spilled it. It was your fault.

    Yo' a hoot, as Lady Eagle would say. [​IMG]
     
  18. go2church

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    jshurley04,

    You seem to think that I am anti-denominational, if you click my profile you will find that I am a member of the Baptist General Convention of Texas, a denomination. What I am arguing for is not the good or the bad of denominations, but rather that the BBF is a denomination, regardless of what they want people to call them or even what they call themselves. Not saying it is good or bad just what it is.
     
  19. jshurley04

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    Point made, maybe I was thinking that, but I do disagree with you about the BBF being a denomination. A denomination will exert some form of control over its local churches to do what it wants, in the fellowship, I see and have experienced the exact opposite. In fact, some of the more aggressive pastors from time to time have to be reminded of such so that they do not overstep their bounds.

    To me the idea that the BBF is a denomination is offensive because of what many "denominations" have done recently and the idea of me as pastor not haveing authority to lead the church as God leads me is offensive as well. These are the reasons that I can, in good faith and conscience, fellowship with the BBF.
     
  20. go2church

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    Since I have been apart of the BGCT, not once has anyone tried to do anything within the local church. They have taken the stance that they will define who they are, and if you want to come along, your more then welcome, if not, that is fine. We maintain our independence. In fact if you send money to the BGCT and don't tell them what you want done with it, they don't do anything, until they find out from the church what you intended the money to be used for.
     

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