Because of the angels

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by npetreley, Apr 11, 2006.

  1. npetreley

    npetreley
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    "1 Cor 11:10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels."

    Anyone have any opinions about what angels have to do with this? Here's a larger section for context:

     
  2. Marcia

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    The angels don't understand things in earthly creation and God's order on earth since they are not human. It seems from this passage and a few others, God has certain principles that serve as witnesses to the angels of how he deals with mankind.
     
  3. Paul of Eugene

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    The problem for Paul is the shame, the incongruity, the embarrasement of the whole thing. The uncovering of the hair conveys a message that is inappropriate to be conveyed in church. Paul also understood that angels are also around,and he wants to add the idea that the angels are also upset over message conveyed by the uncovered hair.

    It remains another question whether the same message is conveyed today. Certainly, amoung us humans, no such message is conveyed today. Are angels confined to the messages conveyed by styles of clothing from the first century and still therefore chagrined, or are they more concerned with the heart of the current humans involved? To me the latter seems more likely.
     
  4. npetreley

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    I always wondered if it had anything to do with the fact that some bad egg angels were in the habit of "knowing" human women (if you know what I mean). The Bible talks about this pre-flood, but I'm guessing it happened post-flood, too, because the nephilim existed again after the flood. So I wondered if this was a way of saying that women are under the authority of men (belong to men), not angels.

    "But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God."

    I'm not claiming this is the correct interpretation. I'm just wondering if there is a connection.
     
  5. Charles Meadows

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    Some commentators suspect it has something to do with the "watchers". The Enochic writings describe "watcher" angels who were tempted by the beauty of the human women.

    But who knows...
     
  6. npetreley

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    Yes, that's what I was talking about. I didn't know that commentators actually said that, though. I guess I'm not the first to think of this possibility. No big surprise there. ;)
     
  7. Marcia

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    But this is not inspired scripture.

    I don't find biblical support for angels being able to have relations with women. Angels seem to be asexual beings and are spirit beings.

    I have never been convinced by any of the arguments that Gen. 6 teaches that fallen angels had relations with women. :rolleyes:
     
  8. npetreley

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    They are also capable of taking on human form. Do I really need to cite examples? There are plenty.

    Genesis 6 refers to some sort of beings that aren't normal humans. Strongs lists this for the word in the passage:

    0430 'elohiym {el-o-heem'}
    plural of 0433; TWOT - 93c; n m p
    AV - God 2346, god 244, judge 5, GOD 1, goddess 2, great 2, mighty 2,
    angels 1, exceeding 1, God-ward + 04136 1, godly 1; 2606
    1) (plural)
    (strong's number 430)


    The fact that it is plural casts doubt on the interpretation that these are the sons of THE God, but sons of "authorities", as in "principalities and powers". Some people interpret this to mean they were simply magistrates or other governmental authorities. But that doesn't explain how "knowing" the women produced giants.

    We also know that it's talking about real giants (as in BIG), because there are other references in the Bible to giant "humans" being related to the nephilim.
     
  9. johnp.

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    Hello npetreley.

    This prophesying a women is meant to do with a sign of authority over the angels on her head, I take it, is a thing Paul condemns in another place. He says a women should be silent in Church and she should ask her hubby if she has any questions. :cool:

    I'd put these verses in a category of don't know and until I do I expect the little ladies to take their place alongside men, not behind them. The passages are ambiguous and if in our ambiguity we treat 50% of the human race as inferior then we don't help ourselves as men.

    They'd have a problem with that if you know what I mean. :cool: The angels are asexual and spirits, if they are affected by the beauty of women it will not be in a way that men could be affected. The Sons of God mentioned are the Sethites who were the first tribe to be chosen.
    GE 4:25 Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, "God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him." 26 Seth also had a son, and he named him Enosh. At that time men began to call on the name of the LORD.

    Seth and his house were the Sons of God and they saw the daughters of men were fair game and mixed marriages occurred. Christians with non-Christians.

    GE 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days...

    These people were the forerunners of Goliath I think.

    Num 13:33 ...(the descendants of Anak come from the Nephilim).
    Jos 15:13 ...(Arba was the forefather of Anak.)
    And Jos 14:15 (Hebron used to be called Kiriath Arba after Arba, who was the greatest man among the Anakites.)...

    Arba was a man not an hybrid.

    I don't recall any? I know they can possess but not take on human form. Yes please cite.

    It doesn't say the union of these two groups produced giants, it just says they were around at the same time and afterwards. The Nephilim were around at the time the mixed marriages took place, they were the heros of old, giants.

    The clincer to this is: GE 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

    Man's wickedness is the reason for the flood not the fallen angels wickedness.

    john.
     
  10. npetreley

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    I don't recall any? I know they can possess but not take on human form. Yes please cite.</font>[/QUOTE]Hebrews 13:2
    Do not forget to entertain strangers, for by so doing some have unwittingly entertained angels.
     
  11. npetreley

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    Could that simply mean that these two things happened at the time? Sure, but it says the giants were on the earth WHEN the sons of God (whoever THEY are) came into the daughters of men (why mention they're the daughters of men unless it is in contrast to the sons of something other than men?), and they bore children to them (to whom? the sons of God).
     
  12. npetreley

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    Don't forget this...what does this mean, that they left their own abode? And why does Jude connect it to sexual immorality and "strange flesh"?

     
  13. Aaron

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    The issue with coverture is authority or rank. Rank is observed in the Godhead, in the angels, and should be observed in the church.

    It's interesting that you bring up Jude. The problem with the angels mentioned there is that they didn't "know their place" so to speak. They rebelled against authority.

    That mentality wrought all kinds of sexual immorality, not in the angels, who can't have sex, but in those who after the manner of the angels didn't "know their place."

    I have a thread on Feminism and homosexuality. What is Feminism but a rebellion against the rank of the male? And what is the end result but all kinds of Sodomy?
     
  14. npetreley

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    Well, I personally chalk this up as a mystery we can't know about until we get to heaven. I know that the Bible says angels in their own domain do not marry, etc. But I don't know of anywhere in the Bible where it explicitly says they can't possibly be sexually tempted by flesh, and can't take on another form to give in to that temptation. Since we know they can take on other forms, including human forms, for me it leaves open that possibility.

    In other words, you may be right, and I really don't care much either way, but I'm not ruling it out until someone can show me where it says otherwise in the Bible.
     
  15. Brother Bob

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    So now we believe that angels had sex with women, what about,was there any female angels to go after the men. (jeepers) I thought it was neither male or female in Heaven?
     
  16. npetreley

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    I keep hoping, but it never happens.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. Brother Bob

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    Blasphemy? I thought it was neither male or female in Heaven?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  18. npetreley

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    Look - first of all, this is all just speculation in trying to understand things like Gen 6, and if it has anything to do with "because of the angels". So please don't start crying blasphemy because I am leaving open a possibility about something that the Bible doesn't rule out.

    Yes, the Bible says they aren't male and female IN HEAVEN. But when Jude (at least seemingly) refers to the events of Gen 6, it says the angels left their own domain. Unless you absolutely KNOW what that means and doesn't mean, then please don't play the blasphemy card.

    I DON'T know what that means. I am not CLAIMING it means anything. I am speculating. I leave open the possibility that it means that some angels were tempted by women, left their own domain, and took on a form in which to satisfy their temptation. Sorry, but when I read the following, it seems to at least suggest that possibility:

    People (IMO wrongfully) rule out creation because it just seems too supernatural for things to happen that way. IMO, it would be wrong to rule out the possibility that angels can do bizarre things because it seems too "supernatural" to us. We have no idea what angels can do and what they cannot do, and we're probably not going to find out the whole story here on earth.
     
  19. Brother Bob

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    Your remark; "I am waiting" is what I was referring to. The other discussion seems mostly to come from the book of Enoch which was written thousands of years after he was on the earth.

    The sons of God are referring to Seth's decendants who were the family of faith and the sons of man were Cain's decendants who were the family of non-faith.
     
  20. npetreley

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    You mean "I keep hoping?" It was a joke. Lighten up.
     

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