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Beer is Proof God Loves Us

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Ps104_33, Mar 7, 2009.

  1. Jim1999

    Jim1999 <img src =/Jim1999.jpg>

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    SO, it is ok to sin as long as you do it in your own home and out of sight!!!!

    I get it now. I always missed that principle.

    Cheers,

    Jim
     
  2. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    I took the quote different. Of course sinning in your house is no different. However, in respect to the part of not drinking that causes someone to stumble or sets a bad example, that aspect is probably not a factor if you are drinking in your home.

    I don't drink, but find it extremely difficult to build a case for abstinence in the Bible.
     
    #42 saturneptune, Mar 8, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 8, 2009
  3. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    I have no problem with that either. The Bible clearly says there was wine in the cup when Jesus drank. As long as you don't turn it to the Church in Corinth...

    1Co 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper.
    21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken.
    22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not.

    Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
     
  4. LeBuick

    LeBuick New Member

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    I agree with your post... My findings, Christians who drink generally share that view while at Church. They share it in Bible study, pulpit etc... There are too many ears that we can't account for their understanding to include our youth and weak.

    I'm not advocating don't ask don't tell, but I do say be very careful because the line is thin,
     
  5. MorganT

    MorganT New Member

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    Jim if your talking to me, first thing you need to do is prove to me that its a sin to drink a glass of wine. I never said anything about sinning in your home, I said that it would not cause someone to stumble in your home.

    Mat 11:18-19 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He has a demon. (19) The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man who is a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners. But wisdom was justified by her children.

    You reckon Jesus drank a little glass of wine for them to say that about him.

    Mar 2:16 And when the scribes and Pharisees saw Him eat with tax-collectors and sinners, they said to His disciples, How is it that He eats and drinks with tax-collectors and sinners?

    Luk 7:33-34 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, He has a demon. (34) The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, Behold a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners!


    You reckon Jesus was drinking that nasty water over there while the tax collectors and sinners were drinking Wine.

    Mat 27:33-34 And coming to a place called Golgotha, which is called, Place of a Skull, (34) they gave Him vinegar mixed with gall to drink. And when He had tasted, He would not drink.

    Mar 15:22-23 And they brought Him to Golgotha Place (which translated is, Place of a Skull). (23) And they gave Him wine mixed with myrrh to drink. But He did not take it.

    Now Matthew says he tasted it and wouldnt drink it because it had vinegar, but Mark says that it was wine with myrrh and he wouldnt drink it. You reckon thats because it had vinegar in it he did taste it.

    Rom 14:20-23 Do not undo the work of God for food. Truly, all things indeed are clean, but it is bad to the man eating because of a stumbling-block. (21) It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything by which your brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak. (22) Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Blessed is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. (23) But, the one doubting, if he eats, he has been condemned, because it is not of faith; and all that is not of faith is sin.


    1Co 10:28-33 But if anyone says to you, This is slain in sacrifice to idols, do not eat for the sake of him who showed it, and for conscience' sake; "for the earth is the Lord's, and the fullness of it"; (29) conscience, I say, not your own, but the other's. For why is my liberty judged by another's conscience? (30) For if I by grace am a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks? (31) Therefore whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. (32) Give no offense, either to the Jews, or to the Greeks or to the church of God; (33) even as I please all men in all things, not seeking my own profit, but the profit of the many, so that they may be saved.


    1Co 11:21-22 For in eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry, and another drunken. (22) For do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God, and shame those who do not have? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you for this? I do not praise you!

    1Ti 5:22-23 Do not lay hands quickly on anyone, neither be partaker of the sins of others. Keep yourself pure. (23) Drink water no longer, but use a little wine for your stomach's sake, and for your frequent infirmities.

    Joh 2:1-11 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee. And the mother of Jesus was there. (2) And Jesus and His disciples were both invited to the marriage. (3) And when they lacked wine, the mother of Jesus said to Him, They have no wine. (4) Jesus said to her, Woman, what do I have to do with you? My hour has not yet come. (5) His mother said to the servants, Whatever He says to you, do it. (6) And there were six stone waterpots there, according to the purification of the Jews, each containing two or three measures. (7) Jesus said to them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. (8) And He said to them, Now draw out and carry it to the master of the feast. And they carried it. (9) When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water which was made wine (and did not know where it was from, but the servants who drew the water knew), the master of the feast called the bridegroom. (10) And he said to him, Every man at the beginning sets forth good wine, and when men have drunk well, then that which is worse. You have kept the good wine until now. (11) This beginning of miracles Jesus did in Cana of Galilee. And it revealed His glory. And His disciples believed on Him.

    Now I aint the smartest guy in the world but if Jesus Christ will turn water into wine it must not be a sin to drink it because if it were Jesus would not have caused those people to sin by doing it. Now refer back to my previous post, I still say you should not drink but its not a sin to drink a glass of wine once a every now and then in the privacey of your home as long as it doenst cause someone to stumble.
     
  6. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Absolutely, "greens" are veggies! However, I am not a fan of "greens."

    On the other hand, I do love fried okra! So all is not lost! :laugh:
     
  7. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Exactly my point.
     
  8. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    I thought this was good.
     
  9. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Ladies who drink wine, you might find it of interest that a recent study in the UK showed even moderate wine drinking for women increases the risk for cancer.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandst...-moderate-drinking-affects-womens-cancer-risk
    Compared to women who said they drank only 1 or 2 units of alcohol a week, women who regularly drank the equivalent of 1 unit a day had an increased risk of getting seven types of cancer: breast, liver, rectum (part of the bowel), mouth, pharynx (a space at the back of the mouth), oesophagus (the tube that takes food from the mouth to the stomach) and larynx (voicebox).

    The risk was most increased for breast cancer. In developed countries like the UK, the chance of having had breast cancer by the age of 75 is 9.5 in 100. According to the study, for every extra daily unit of alcohol (over 2 a week), that risk increases by 1.1 per 100. So if you had a roughly 9.5 percent chance of getting breast cancer by the age of 75, but you drank one glass of wine a day, that risk would go up to 10.6 percent. If you drank two glasses of wine a day, that would increase to 11.7 percent.

    These might sound like quite small increases in risk. But because many women drink alcohol at these sorts of levels, it means a lot of women are affected overall. The researchers estimate that alcohol accounts for 11 percent of all breast cancers in the UK. That means that every year, 5,000 women get breast cancer who wouldn't have got it without drinking alcohol.___End excerpt <more>
     
  10. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    No, drinking a glass of wine is not a sin, but what is the reason for drinking it?
    That is the heart of the matter for me. And it can cause a person to stumble if done in your home if they know you do such 'in your home'. But of course that is depenant upon how much one likes to brag about their drinking though doesn't it?

    Let us watch the context here.
    This passage is speaking about those whom these men stayed around not specifically the men themselves. John did not associate with sinners at all but declared them to repent from a distance. He stayed seperate from them - thus he came neither eating nor drinking (otherwise we must conclude that John never ate nor drank anything). Jesus however (as the passage states) was a friend of sinners and so came eating and drinking. This doesn't mean Jesus had to drink wine to be called a winebibber nor that He stuffed himself as glutton who was nothing more than a self-centered eater. It simply means that Jesus was being called a sinner (glutton and drunk) because He associated personally with these sinners and so was equated as one of them. NOTE - they made the claims even though they could not prove their accusations.

    This is why the very last part of the verse states that 'wisdom' is justified by her children. Being complete seperate from the world, though good to a point reaches very few. However being in or amongst the worldly but seperate from it's sins and vices reaches the multitudes.

    No, because it refers to the company He was with - sinners.

    Please remember that I am not saying a person can not drink (in modertation) but in relation to Christ Jesus we never actaully read of Him drinking anything alcoholic. It is assumed He could have due to where He was at but assuming and declaring facts are two different things.

    The term 'drinks' here does not mean wine brother. It simply refers to His familiarity with them in that He even sets down at their tables where as the Pharisees went out of their way not to let the shadows of these kinds of peoples houses touch them.

    Again, as I stated previously. They said he was a glutton, are we to presume that He ate selfishly at these dinners taking for Himself whether others received some or not. And are to we assume also that Jesus was drunkard at these sinners houses He frequented like a common saloon. No, because it is summed up for us as to why they called him these things. Since He ate at the tables of these sinners He must be a glutton and drunk for this was the typical life of a sinners table and only sinners would be found there (at least in their eyes). Thus He was equated with their lifestyle NOT His actual actions of eating OR drinking.

    What was nasty about their water? How about their fruit juices?

    Why mark these two which state He would not drink the vinigar (soured wine).

    The text does not state that He didn't drink it because it 'had vinigar' but that it 'was vinigar'. This was commonly given as pain killer (alcohal will do that for ya :laugh: ). Mark gives the exact same account but with more detail as what it was and was in it. It was still wine because that is what vinigar was soured wine but it was mixed with some herbs to relax the person somewhat and kill the bitter or sour flavor.

    Rom 14:20-23 Do not undo the work of God for food. Truly, all things indeed are clean, but it is bad to the man eating because of a stumbling-block. (21) It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything by which your brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak. (22) Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Blessed is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. (23) But, the one doubting, if he eats, he has been condemned, because it is not of faith; and all that is not of faith is sin.


    I agree, if you know that an action you partake in is an offence to another because they see it as sin then abstain from doing it for their sakes. We are know by our love for our brethren nor ourselves. Paul even goes on to say that as for himself if it cause a brother to stumble he will not do that thing - ever. This is our liberty, to abstain from what we can do for the sake of our fellow believers that they might grow in grace and truth. As the old saying goes - It's not about me.


    The term 'drunken' here does not necessarly mean intoxicated but also can refer to one who has taken more than is his share or good for him. If you will notice the contrast that Paul used - one is hungry and the other is ... a glutton? No, drunken so it isn't about being intoxicated but taking more than was theirs for their bellies sake. Otherwise Paul would have gotten on to them about their drunkeness also but he does not. He gets on to them on 2 issues. Lack of reverence and respect for the Lords Table and 2. their selfishness in eating and drinking, leaving some with nothing from the Lords table.

    This little ditty is a good one to show that even back then this issue was unresolved :) However Paul tells Timothy it is ok to take for medicine regarding disentary which was most likely Tim's problem. It is interesting to note that Paul does not admonish Timothy that it is ok to drink but to drink for medicinal purposes.
     
    #50 Allan, Mar 9, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2009
  11. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Part 2

    This portion of scripture can not be used to proven that Jesus made alcoholic wine. Wine is the general sense of the work is used here which means either an alcoholic wine or Juice which was also refered to as a wine during that time period. This one can be used by either side of the fence here

    Again nothing proves this was fermented wine from the text. The fact it states this is the best which is always served first does not give credence to fermentation but that this wine tasted fresh and pure and not watered down and bitter. IOW- it tasted like it was fresh squeezed and anyone who knows fruit wines knows that the best wines are those which have that fresh smooth fruit flavor that stands out above the ferment.

    In case you don't know I abstain from alcohol as a drink but I also do not consider it a sin to drink. I consider it a sin for one who is drinking (even in moderation) who knowing there is one of his own, who thinks it a sin to do such and continues to do it. I abstain due to my testimony amoung the lost as well as my brethren. Besides why drink that when I have so many other things to partake of where as 200 years ago and earlier they did not. Thus they had beer, wine, water, and (if one could aquire it) fruit juice was all that was available. And even in those times water was not the best thing to drink in many places so that basically left beer and wines.


    Something to think about:
    A priest was forbidden to drink anything alcohalic before or during the performing of their duties/minstries by penalty of death - by God Himself. Jesus is our Great High Priest, when was He ever not 'on duty' so to speak like the levites who at sun down were releived of their work for the night?
    He is also declared to be our King? Does not scripture state that it is not right for a King to drink wine nor a prince to drink strong drink? (this was because it has the chance of perverting their decisions which might have to be made at any given time).
    And are we also not called kings and priests?

    as I said - just something to ponder.


    OH BY THE WAY - this is pick on Morgan day!!!
    :laugh: Just kidding, I chose you because I know you don't take offence as quickly as some. God bless and nothing in here is seriously about or against you.
     
    #51 Allan, Mar 9, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2009
  12. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    The Spirit of God does not need 'to lead us' in this, we do this out of our love for the brethren. Scripture is specific that if a fellow beleiver considers it sin we are not to partake at the very least in their presence.

    I did see the rest of your post but this portion is what I wanted to clarify since if we do not then it is not they but we who are sinning and that against our own brethren.

    Moderation itself must be defined here as well as what scripture declares as 'drunk'. I know a believer who drinks two beers a night, every night but since he does not consider himself drunk and isn't driving he is fine. Why? Because he says he is doing it in moderation, and that being he isn't drunk.

    I'm not saying this is your view at all, but these terms are used so flipantly they are almost meaningless anymore.

    This is a very biased statement and one that is not very well informed.
    People who hold to abstinance of alcohal as a beverage do not do so because of the temperance movement but because of what they see scripture saying. It has been a view that goes all the way back to the time of the apostles and not the temperance movement. (Timothy is the prime example). It makes it neither right or wrong but to make the claim it comes from the above movement is inaccurate at best.
     
  13. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    Now see Morgan - I can't pick on you here.

    Oh wait, it is after 12 o'clock, it is no longer pick on Morgan day :laugh: :wavey:
     
  14. EdSutton

    EdSutton New Member

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    Wonder if here would be a good place to note that it is thought the individual who 'invented' bourbon whiskey was the pioneer Baptist Preacher, Rev. Elijah Craig, of the Craigs of Traveling Church fame?

    Incidentally, the busy and enterprising Craig was also the 'founder' of Georgetown, KY, and shortly after that, a school that would eventually become Georgetown College, as well as a distillery. a clothing mill, and a paper mill, in addition to being the pastor of the Great Crossings Baptist Church, at the time.

    However, as far as I know, he did not brew any beer.

    Oh yeah, "Cheers!"

    [​IMG]

    Ed.
     
    #54 EdSutton, Mar 9, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 9, 2009
  15. Allan

    Allan Active Member

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    True, and Augustine helped bring in infant baptism but that does not change the fact it was not a bright idea :smilewinkgrin:
     
  16. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Anyone who knows about grapes knows that grape juice tastes nothing like Welch's and knows that real grape juice would rot quite quickly without refrigeration.
     
  17. StefanM

    StefanM Well-Known Member
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    Now don't go confusing people with facts here! :laugh:
     
  18. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I know. There are those who enjoy ignorance because it feeds their fire.
     
  19. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther New Member

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    I drink, I don't get drunk either. Drinking to me is like junk food for others, it has no "control" of my life, but is nice when done in moderation.
     
  20. thegospelgeek

    thegospelgeek New Member

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    I just had this discussion over the weekend in a bible study with friends. Let me start with the fact that I do not drink. Here are my reasons why.

    1. I may cause a weeker brother or Sister to fall.
    2. I may present myself as a stumbling block to the unsaved.
    3. My Church memebership does not allow it.
    4. My conference does not ordain pastors who drink.
    5. I just don't like it.
    With that said, I must correct Allan where he says, in reference to John 2
    If you look up the Greek in Strongs for G3184 translated "when men have well drunk" in the KJV, you get
    It's very difficult to become intoxicated on grape juice.
     
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