Before the Universe

Discussion in 'Creation vs. Evolution' started by Administrator2, Jan 6, 2002.

  1. Administrator2

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    JOHN WELLS
    Evolutionists say the universe is very old. I've heard as much as 17 billion years and as young as 12 billion years. If on one of those dates, or somewhere in between, matter came into existence, what do you say caused (tempted to say created) the matter? Did all the matter in the universe come into being over time (how long) or was it instantaneous?


    JOE MEERT
    At this point, the answer is unknown. Technically, it is incorrect to say 'before' since time itself originated at the instant of the big bang. As far as matter in the Universe it was formed over time according to current models. The initial phases of the Big expansion involved energy. This energy was later 'converted' to matter. This is the essence of Einstein's E=mc^2 idea. Heck, many christian astrophysicists put on their philosopher hats and say "God caused the Big bang".


    JOHN WELLS
    Just curious though in my devil's advocate roll here. I don't see whether or not time as we know it existed before matter came into being is relevant. But what or Who made matter out of nothing? It would be a real step of faith to conclude that energy and or matter have always existed. If they haven't, well I've gone full circle.


    JOE MEERT
    As i said, there are no definitive answers to your question at present. what is known is that time came about when the universe came about. As far as I know, no-one has advocated the notion of eternal energy as part of Big bang cosmology, but I am willing to be corrected on that.


    JOHN WELLS
    How do we know that time came about when the universe came about? Eternity past is a difficult concept to grasp. Much more so than eternity into the future. Wouldn't you agree?

    It sure seems to me that something (not likely) or some being (much more likely) had to create (there goes that word again) matter and energy at some past point in time.


    THINK PLEASE
    Science really has nothing to say about the beginning of the universe as of yet, simply because there are no observables from the time before the Cosmic microwave background was emitted. Anything before that time period is pure conjecture.

    However, if you want pure conjecture, I'm a big fan of the infinite universes theory. Basically, there are an infinite number of universes out there covering an infinite amount of possibilities, one for each decision someone or something had to make at some point in their existence. It gives the alternate historians something to write about anyway...


    RATMAN_TF
    If anyone on this thread comes up with some solid answers, let me know. I'll nab it and go apply for a Nobel prize.
    *YOINK!*

    Seriously, the Big Bang is a theory to explain the observed expansion of the universe, which was predicted by Einstein's theories, but he hushed up because a universe that was not static was too much even for HIM at the time. Only later, when the red shift of receding galaxies was observed, did he go back and fix his equations.
    Not to mention the background radiation that permeates the whole of the currently observable universe. Who knows? Maybe the Big Bang model is wrong. There are far smarter people than me working on these very questions.


    JOHN WELLS
    ThinkPlease: However, if you want pure conjecture, I'm a big fan of the inifinite universes theory.
    Basically, there are an infinite number of universes out there covering an infinite amount of possibilities, one for each decision someone or something had to make at some point in their existance. It gives the alternate historians something to write about anyway...

    Wow! You have far more FAITH than I do. I'll stick with "In the beginning, God . . ."


    JOE MEERT
    Nothing wrong with that. However, the infinite universes hypothesis gives us something else to think aboutconsider and, if possible, test. Poof God did it is an answer, but no fun to test. However, the simple fact of the matter is that until science can discover a quantum theory of gravity, we may never get back to the instant time began. By the way, the Big Bang theory is clear that time (in this universe anyway) originated at the instant of the Big Bang. Not much debate on that issue that I am aware of.


    MILAN
    Just one minor point for the sake of clarity. Evolutionists deal with evolution. Evolution refers to living organisms. Consequently, evolutionists dont make estimations regarding the age of the universe. This is the realm of geophysicists, astronomers, etc.
     
  2. Administrator2

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    TIM THOMPSON
    Hello John,
    You should ask where the energy came from; matter is easy, it's just "condensed energy" (in a sense much similar to solid ice being condensed water vapor). Matter condenses out of the energy of the universe when it has cooled enough, in much the same way as cooling water vapor sublimates directly into solid ice. Both are examples of what physicists call a phase transition. Better to ask "What caused the Big Bang?"
    If one takes general relativity literally, then the observation of an expanding universe certainly implies a beginning, at which the entire universe comes instantly into existence. There is no scientific explanation for it, if one assumes that there truly is no "before" the Big Bang. So if you ask "What do you say caused it", the only real answer is "I don't know". Seems reasonable.

    However, I doubt that any serious cosmologists ever really thought that the Big Bang was a "true beginning" for the "true universe", but was perhaps a beginning for our little corner of a much larger universe outside. There are several ways to look at it, from the 1970's idea of the Big Bang as a "quantum fluctuation", or something similar, to the "pre Big Bang" scenarios born of string theory. They all allow for an infinite "super-universe", in both time & space, which includes our own "universe" as a subset. In these scenarios, the universe does not have a beginning, and the question becomes moot.

    At some level, such ideas are not entirely scientific, as they don't necessarily allow for this "super-universe" to have an observable signature. However, there is much work trying to find such observable clues, mostly in the acoustic spectrum of the cosmic background radiation.

    But of course, some "evolutionists" might say that God caused it. Or is it impossible to be an "evolutionist" and believe in God at the same time?
     

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