'Beginning of Sorrows'?

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Martin Marprelate, Feb 1, 2016.

  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Matt. 24:8, NKJV. 'All these are the beginning of sorrows.'
    Matt. 24:8. ESV. 'All these are but the beginning of birth pains.'

    Brothers will know that I am a fan of the NKJV and use it most of the time, but in this verse it follows the KJV thoughtlessly IMO, and clouds a very important teaching. I understand that in the 17th Century, labour pains were called 'sorrows' or 'travails' but for the modern reader 'sorrows' simply means 'miseries' and that does not portray our Lord's meaning in this verse. The ESV, NIV and most other modern translations are therefore better at this point.

    The Greek word in question is odin and it means birth pains or labour pains, as in 1 Thes. 5:3. Now those of us who have attended their wives in childbirth know that in a maternity ward you hear cries of pain and agony, doctors and nurses are running about and you might think that someone's dying, but no! Something's coming to birth. And this is the meaning of Matt. 24:8. Despite the wars, earthquakes etc., the apostasy and persecution, something better is on the way. Matt. 24 is a passage of great hope. Compare Romans 8:18-23.

    Here's a transcript of a sermon I gave recently on Matt. 24:1-14.

    .https://marprelate.wordpress.com/2016/02/01/suffering-and-the-return-of-christ/

    I'm very reluctant to criticize the KJV and NKJV, especially as Rippon will doubtless gloat horribly, but facts are facts. I hope a future edition of the NKJV will correct this failing.
     
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  2. Rippon

    Rippon
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    You know, I was about to give you an icon of agreement, but otherwise not make a remark. But then you felt you had to add an undeserved dig at the end of your post. Why do you act the way you do?

    You have demeaned the NIV in unspeakable ways on a regular basis. You have no justification for that sorry business.
     
    #2 Rippon, Feb 1, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2016
  3. kyredneck

    kyredneck
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    Wrong:

    6 A voice of tumult from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of Jehovah that rendereth recompense to his enemies.
    7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man-child. Isa 66

    22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
    23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21
     
  4. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Wrong. You are confusing AD 70 with the Return of Jesus Christ, a most egregious error.
     
  5. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    I do apologize, brother. It was meant to be humorous, but I can see that it wasn't really.
     
  6. kyredneck

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    Your's is the most egregious error in ignoring/explaining away such related passages such as these:

    40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
    41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
    45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

    23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10

    28 Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16

    63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
    64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26
     
  7. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    More than happy to discuss these things, brother, but this is the wrong forum.
    Open a new thread.
     
  8. kyredneck

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    So why did you post that egregiously erroneous sermon on this forum to begin with?
     
  9. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Thank you for taking the time to read it.
    I posted it partly in the hope that some folk would read it (thank you again), and partly to show that there is a very clear interpretational difference between 'sorrows' and ''birth-pains.
     
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy
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    Actually the word means "pain of sorrow" and is a form of the Greek word ὀδύνη meaning "sorrow." :)

    Now, I agree, in the context it means sorrows brought on by pain of birth but we can't demand the word mean any more than its etymology and philology dictates.
     
  11. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    All quite true, but it's worth noting that the verb form, odino, is used three times in the N.T. (Gal. 4:19, 27; Rev. 12:2) and all of them refer to childbirth. Taken in conjunction with 1 Thes. 5:3, I think the evidence for Matt. 24:8 meaning 'labour pains' is a bit heavy. :)
     
  12. TCassidy

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    I am not certain the KJV or NKJV is wrong. The philological use of the word "sorrows" meant "labor pains." The "time of sorrows" was a well known euphemism for childbirth due largely to the abysmal level of medical knowledge coupled with the huge mortality rate amongst new borns at that time.

    The KJV and NKJV have simply continued to literally translate the words and allow the reader or preacher to explain the metaphorical usage.

    In fact just about every early English translation used the same phrases.

    Wycliffe 1380 "bigynnyngis of sorwis."

    Tyndale 1534 "beginninge of sorowes."

    Cranmer 1539 "begynnynges of sorowes."

    Geneva 1557 "begynnyng of sorowes."

    Rheims 1582 "beginnings of sorovves."

    There is a word for "birth" in Greek, γενετης, and a word for "pain" - πονος meaning to toil in agony.

    So what you are asking for is not a translation but an interpretation. I have no problem at all with either "beginning of sorrows" or "beginning of birth pains." One is formal equivalence and the other is dynamic equivalence. Both are correct if you understand the first is metaphorical language and the second is dynamic interpretation. :)
     
  13. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate
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    Thank you for your thoughts. :)
     
  14. Rippon

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    Thank you MM. I did take offence. So thank you for the clarification.
     

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