Behold I STAND at the door and Knock Rev 3

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by BobRyan, Nov 11, 2013.

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  1. BobRyan

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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by BobRyan [​IMG]
    hence statements like the ones we find in Rev 3 by the same author that is writing in John 6 - also quoting the teaching of Christ.

    "I STAND and the door and knock - if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in". Rev 3.

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1

    in Christ,

    Bob



    1. All lost humanity must eventually decide to remain lost or to accent the Gospel and be united to the body of Christ - in the church.

    2. Not everyone in the church is saved.

    3. John was NOT limiting the Gospel to "only those church members alive at the writing of the book of Revelation".

    4. There are only two basic states - the LOST and the SAVED in this world. And the lost continually cross over to become the saved as time unfolds. (So also do the saved cross over to become the lost until the Rev 22:10-11 condition is met and all crossing-over ends).

    I think all honest Bible students and get these points easily and so all (probably) agree to this point (at least to the parts not in parenthesis).

    1. The saved state is NOT comprised of "the lost sinner ALONE on the inside - Christless --- and Christ on the OUTSIDE seeking to be let in".

    2. "Christ IN you the hope of Glory" is the state of the saved - not the lost.

    3."Estranged from Christ" - "Apart from Christ" -- "Severed FROM Christ" is the lost condition. Not a description of Gospel salvation.

    4. The 7 churches represent the church in all ages since the cross - but do not consist of "only the saved" nor does any lost person on the planet "remain outside the church" once they become saved. Thus all mankind that is lost - becomes "the saved" - becomes a member of one of those 7 churches once they are saved or in some cases make a profession of faith.

    5. "I STAND and the door and knock - if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in". Rev 3.

    This is not of the form "I burst down the door for those FEW of Matt 7 that I arbitrarily select to make alive as my children and ignore the rest". And yet in Calvinism it is apparently imagined into that form. Or is it?

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1


    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
    20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


    The basis of Bob's whole argument is the falsehood that there are only two types of people in the world - lost or saved. These letters deal with a third type - the disobedient saved. Note verse 19! Chastening is not for lost people nor is it for faithful saved people. It is for disobedient saved people (Heb. 12:5-10).

    Second, this is addressed to the specific congregation at Laodicia and this isthe condition of the WHOLE CONGREGATION and it is applicable to all congregations that fall into this condition.

    Third, When a CONGREGATION of SAVED PEOPLE are in a condition they need chastening AS A CONGREGATION, they have shut Christ out of their FELLOWSHIP.

    For those who understand the basics of salvation you already realize that you can be SAVED and yet not in FELLOWSHIP with Christ and that is why chastening occurs. Note that who Christ addresses is not only the congregation as a whole in this letter but it is those whom he "LOVES" and is going to chasten (v. 19) Because they have DISFELLOWSHIPPED Christ, placed him outside the congregation in regard to FELLOWSHIP as one cannot fellowship with sin and fellowship with Christ at one and the same time.
     
  3. BobRyan

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    "As many as I love I rebuke and chasten"

    "God so Loved the WORLD that He gave" -- yes "really".

    "God is not willing that ANY should perish but that ALL should come to repentance" 2Peter3.

    "God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself" 2Cor 5.

    God sent His Son "to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1John 4.

    "While we were yet sinners Christ died for us" Romans 5.

    I think John is consistent in Rev 3 with what he writes in John 3:16.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. BobRyan

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    The basis of Biblicist's whole argument is the falsehood that there is such a thing as "Christless" salvation where Christ is on the outside of the soul waiting for the sinner - who is alone on the inside, to open the door and embrace fellowship with Christ.

    But the Bible is clear that without Christ - there is no such thing as a saved condition of man.

    Those who imagined that Gal 5:4 "severed from Christ" is the saved state under the Gospel as described by scripture are mistaken.

    And not even Biblicist would argue that all members in a church - are saved.

    and of course many of the "then lost" become the "later saved" throughout the decades the followed.


    1. All lost humanity must eventually decide to remain lost or to accent the Gospel and be united to the body of Christ - in the church.

    2. Not everyone in the church is saved.

    3. John was NOT limiting the Gospel to "only those church members alive at the writing of the book of Revelation".

    4. There are only two basic states - the LOST and the SAVED in this world. And the lost continually cross over to become the saved as time unfolds. (So also do the saved cross over to become the lost until the Rev 22:10-11 condition is met and all crossing-over ends).



    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #4 BobRyan, Nov 12, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 12, 2013
  5. The Biblicist

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    1. Absence of salvation is not even mentioned but rather Christ does not partake with them in their current condition as a church and is thus shut out by their disobedience.

    2. Even infant Christians understand chastening is not for the lost or for the faithful but for Christians who have shut Christ out when you are disobedient.

    My first post sufficiently exposed Bob's use and arguments as false.
     
  6. BobRyan

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    In Rev 3 the robe of Christ's righteousness is not one the one who is "blind and naked".

    In Rev 3 Christ Himself is not in fellowship with the one who is alone, on the inside -with Christ outside of the soul knocking at the door - waiting to be let in.

    Here then is the Christless, uncovered, naked position of the lost.

    But as some would have us imagine- 'What if this is what it means to be saved?" What if this is a description of the saved saint!!

    "Absence of salvation is not even mentioned" said Biblicist.

    Notice that in Romans 1 the phrase "absence of salvation" is not found while describing the lost barbarians. But if "any ol excuse will do" is the only solution left for Calvinism when it comes to Rev 3... well then... so be it.

    You have free will. You can cling to that solution if you wish.

    But for the rest of us "Christ IN you the hope of Glory" is the heart of soul of what it means to be saved.

    "God was IN Christ reconciling the WORLD to himself... we BEG you on behalf of Christ BE RECONCILED unto God" 2Cor 5.

    Those NOT reconciled to God are not described as "saved" -- as it turns out. And sadly for the Calvinist argument at this point as it tries to imagine a "Christless" salvation for someone alone, naked without the robe of Christ's righteousness, without the wedding garment, and being asked to hear Christ and open the door and let Him into the soul so that it is "NO longer I who live but CHRIST who lives IN Me" Gal 2.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  7. Jerome

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    Old time Baptists:

    Hanserd Knollys, The World to Come (1681)

    "Secondly, Open your hearts to Christ, when he knocks at the Door of your Souls, and calls you to come to him, to receive him, and let him come into your hearts, and dwell in your hearts by his holy Spirit, and sanctifying Grace, Rev. 3.20. Behold I stand at the Door and knock, if any man hear my voice, and will open the Door, . . I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. If the Sinner be willing to open the door of his heart, Christ will come in by his holy Spirit, and HE will communicate of his Grace to his Soul."


    John Bunyan, The Doctrine of the Law and Grace Unfolded (1685)

    "Object[ion]: But, I am afraid the day of Grace is past, and if it should be so, what should I do then?
    Answ[er]: . . . .First, doth the Lord knock still at the door of thy Heart by his Word and Spirit? If so, then the day of Grace is not past with thy Soul; for where he doth so knock, there he doth also proffer, and promise to come in and Sup, (that is, to Communicate of his things unto them) which he would not do, was the day of Grace past with the Soul, Rev. 3. 20."


    Thomas Killcop, The Pathway to Justification (1660)

    "Obj: There is a passive receiving of Christ without a hand, when God forceth open mans spirit, and powreth in his Son in despite of the receiver.
    Answ. This contradicts Christ, who saith, Behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man will open to me, I will come into him and sup with him, and he with me, Rev. 3.20."


    Benjamin Keach, The Glory of God's Rich Grace Displayed (1694)

    "O know you, Sinners, this Day, that Jesus Christ, this glorious King, and Prince of the Kings of the Earth, this mighty Saviour is come to your Doors: Behold, I stand at the Door and knock: Rev. 3.20. Will you not open the Door, nor cry to him to help you to open to him, to enable you to believe in him? What do you say, shall the Son of God stand at your Doors, and you not so much as ask, Who is there? Who is at my Door? Shall Christ be kept out of your Hearts, and stand at your Doors, whilst Sin commands the chiefest Room, and has absolute Power over you, and rules in you? How will you be able to look this Blessed Saviour in the Face another Day?"


    Charles Spurgeon, "Knock" (1883)

    "There stands the Ever-Blessed, knocking at the door of the soul, but the hinges are rusted, the door, itself, is fast bolted and wild briars and all kinds of creeping plants running up the door prove that it has been along time since it was moved. You know what it all means—how continuance in sin makes it harder to yield to the knock of Christ and how evil habits creeping up, one after another, hold the soul so fast that it cannot open to the sacred knocking. Jesus has been knocking at some of your hearts ever since you were children—and still He knocks. I hear His blessed hand upon the door at this moment! Do you not hear it? Will you not open?"
     
  8. BobRyan

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    Excellent post! Thanks. That is a keeper.
     
  9. The Biblicist

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    What you can't do is properly exegete scripture and so tradition is your only option.

    I am sorry but I do not believe in the inspiration of Baptist interpreters. I believe scripture trumps Baptist, Catholic, SDA, Mormon, Methodist or any other uninspired interpreter. I could quote endless Baptists interpretations on scripture that are wrong and would be laughed out of the forum if I replaced proper exegesis with uninspired applications and opinions.

    The immediate context is speaking of CHASTENING not salvation - period! The immediate context is speaking to those who have "ears to hear" not the lost - Period! The immediate context is addressing disobedient born again church members not the lost - "hear what the Spirit saith UNTO THE CHURCHES" - period! The Immediate context is addressing their works not their redemption "I know thy works" - period.

    The proper exegetical interpretation of this passage is that the condition of the CHURCH AS A WHOLE is such that they have shut Christ out of their fellowship by their attitude and actions. He is addressing disobedient baptized believing church members not the lost world and the context makes this so obvoius to any honest intepreter.
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Now and then I agree with something you say.

    But that does not mean I am forced to oppose everything a Baptist ever said just because there is some other point on which I differ. You and DHK have struggled with that concept in the past.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. BobRyan

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    As one recently asked "monergism" or "synergism" ??

    "I STAND and the door and knock - if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in". Rev 3.

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1
     
  12. Winman

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    Biblicist rants, but amazingly the scholars disagree with him.

     
  13. The Biblicist

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    What a mess! Your first quote is found in the context of baptized believing churche members while your second quote is found in a context of unbaptized, unbelieving Jews. However, that is precisely how you deal with scriptures by jerking texts out of context and using them any way your little heart desires.

    "I STAND and the door and knock - if ANYONE HEARS my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in". Rev 3.

    "He came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1
    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, he has been describing the church at Laodicea as a whole but the whole is made up of individuals "anyone."

    The contextual factors that I have spelled out are indisiputable and that is precisely why you never dispute them but simply do the RUN JUMP and PIT routine that characterizes all false teachers and misled Bible students.
     
  14. Winman

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    Look, when Jesus said "if any man hear my voice", that is universal. You may not like that, but those are the facts.

    And when Jesus said "he that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches", that is also an universal invitation. You cannot simply insert your unsupported doctrine of Irresistible Grace into the text here.
     
  15. The Biblicist

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    If I wrote a letter to your congregation telling you that I know your works and then started spelling out specific works that are descriptive of your church and how they are wrong and then said "if any man hear my voice" and repent of these works who do you think I would be addressing? The church down the street? The world? Be honest!

    If I told you to write seven letters to seven congregations and at the end of each letter I said "he that hath an ear to hear what the Spirit SAITH UNTO THE CHURCHES" would you think I was addressing people in the Masonic Lodge or people attending false temples or the audiance that actuallly had the letters READ to them?????? In New Testament times they did not have thier own New Testament where they could read it for themselves but when an apostolic letter came to them it was publicly read before the congregation and so all HEARD but did not read it. Use a little common sense as Bob's interpretation does not even make sense as NO ONE ELSE WOULD BE LISTENING but the audiance it was actually being PUBLICLY READ TO and that audiance is explicitly identified and it is not THE WORLD of lost sinners but the CHURCHES as these letters were passed around to the congregations to be publicly read.
     
  16. Winman

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    I disagree. When Jesus said "if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him", I believe he is speaking to 100% of men everywhere.

    And when Jesus said, "he that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches", I believe that Jesus is speaking to 100% of men.

    Your problem is that you assume your view has been proven. You assume that Irresistible Grace is a fact and that only persons who have been supernaturally regenerated can possibly hear.

    But that is the question! Neither you, nor any other Calvinist has ever proven from scripture that Irresistible Grace is true.

    Show me from scripture where it says all men are born unable to hear and understand the word of God.

    Now, before you show me Romans 8 and 1 Corinthians 2:14 (because that is all you've got), I can tell you right now I am going to show you Cornelius. He was not saved, and he did not have the Holy Spirit, yet he was devout, he prayed always, and he was able to do good works acceptable to God.

    I will also show you many other scriptures that show people believed before receiving the Holy Spirit, such as John 7:39, Galatians 3:2, Ephesians 1:13 and MANY other verses besides.

    You simply fail to understand that you have never PROVED your position, you have not even come close.
     
  17. BobRyan

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    In John 17 Christ prays for His disciples - all the world takes it as a prayer for us as well.

    In John 3 Christ speaks to Nicodemus about being born again - all the world takes it as the Gospel truth for us as well.


    In Rev 3 Christ speaks to those who are "alone on the inside of the soul - without Christ" and says that HE is on the OUTSIDE "I STAND at the door and KNOCK if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL come in" Rev 3. What is interesting here is that the SAME principle that applies to ALL the lost - applies to Laodice who is WITHOUT the robe of Christ's righteousness "naked". the promise is given by the same Savior that says "I will DRAW ALL unto Me". This standing at the door and knocking - is perfectly in harmony with that - even by Calvinist standards!! This is the "God so loved the WORLD" model. This is the model that we find in John 16 where the Holy Spirit "Convicts THE WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

    This is NOT limited to just believers in one church 2000 years ago - excluding all the rest of mankind as Calvinists had hoped.

    It is too late to suppose that no one for WHOM Christ works - will ever reject him.

    "HE came to HIS OWN and HIS OWN received Him not" John 1


    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #17 BobRyan, Nov 17, 2013
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  18. The Biblicist

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    In other words the immediate context in which these words are placed mean nothing to you or how you interpret God's Word??? Well, I guess that is obvious if one just looks at what you believe and how you atempt to defend what you believe. Irrationality cannot be rationally dealt with and your whole approahc is irrational.
     
  19. BobRyan

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    Hint: In the "immediate" context John 17 is speaking to the 12 disciples - yet the prayer is for all.

    In the immediate context in Rev 3 - they are without the robes of Christ's righteousness - lost. And as Christ draws ALL the lost so also the Laodiceans. "I will draw ALL unto ME". -- "I stand at the door and KNOCK if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I WILL com in".

    Same writer.

    Same speaker.

    Same issue - God reaching out to the lost and drawing them unto Himself -- offering the robe of Christ's righteousness in the context of the Gospel.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Nov 17, 2013
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  20. Winman

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    The immediate context is that Jesus said "if ANY MAN hear my voice".

    The immediate context is that Jesus said "He that hath an ear to hear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches".

    Now, if Jesus was only speaking to this church, then why did he tell others to hear what he is saying to the churches?

    Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

    Rev 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

    Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Rev 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

    Rev 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Rev 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Rev 3:13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    Rev 3:22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

    I've got an ear, in fact, I have two. So Jesus said I should listen to what he says to the churches. That includes Rev 3:20 that says Jesus stands at the door and knocks, if any man hear his voice and open the door, he would come in to that person.

    I heard, and I opened the door.
     
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