Behold, I stand at the door and knock.

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by King James Bond, Aug 23, 2005.

  1. King James Bond

    King James Bond
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2005
    Messages:
    395
    Likes Received:
    0
    "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me."

    Many people try to use this verse as some sort of attempt at giving proof that people have free-will.

    May I say to you all that men have a fallen nature and will.

    You know this verse is very true indeed!

    The word "IF" is only made with two letters but it is a very big word.

    "IF anyone hears my voice"

    As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten.

    “He who has the key of David, He who opens and no one shuts, and shuts and no one opens”: “I know your works. See, I have set before you an open door, and no one can shut it; for you have a little strength, have kept My word, and have not denied My name. Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie—indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you."

    God bless! KJB
     
  2. inpeace

    inpeace
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2005
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    ....If anyone "hears" My voice

    How does man "hear" his voice?

    How does it glorify God that the same man who hears the voice has the power to also reject it? If so, wouldn't the verse read more along the lines of "When" man hears my voice and decides to open the door, then I will come in to him..."

    Isn't it more glorifying to the all powerful God that the hearing of his voice results in the opening of the door?

    Thank God for spiritual ears enabling us to hear.

    AMEN AMEN AMEN
     
  3. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    Here's another fine example of a verse that gets yanked out of context and grossly twisted to fit an otherwise unbiblical notion.

    What our Free-Willer friends won't recognize is WHO this pasaage speaks to. Verse 15 of Rev 3 says "I know YOUR works; YOU are neither cold nor hot." Verse 16 "...because YOU are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit YOU out of my mouth." Verse 17 " For YOU say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that YOU are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked."

    WHO'S THE YOU HERE?

    Verse 18 "I counsel YOU to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that YOU may be rich, and white garments so that YOU may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that YOU may see."

    Who is He talking Too????

    Back up in verse 14 we are told. Its the church- the Church of Laodicea, This is addressed to the SEVEN CHURCHES.

    Then when we get to verse 19 and read "If anyone hears and opens..." and we ask "Anyone of who?" the context tells us. Its anyone of you,--You in the Church.
     
  4. 4His_glory

    4His_glory
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2005
    Messages:
    2,884
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen Monergist,

    I don't know how many times I have people use this verse as an invitation to the Gospel. It was never directed toward unregenerate men but the church.
     
  5. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    This makes no sense. Believers MAKE the church. Are you trying to say any believer who opens the door? THE BELIEVER ALREADY OPENED THE DOOR!!
     
  6. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Why would Christ tell the regenerated believer that already "opened the door", to open the door?
     
  7. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    3,816
    Likes Received:
    0
    Webdog, That's an easy question.

    So he could sup with them.

    The supper in the first century was the time of fellowship in the family circle. Jesus wants to be invited back into the church's intimate family circle at Laodicea - they've pushed him out. Remember? They're the ones who have let their spiritual fire cool down. They're the ones who are lukewarm.
     
  8. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,408
    Likes Received:
    70
    I'm not a Calvinist, but I would not use this message to the Laodicean church as an invitation to Christ.
     
  9. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    3,816
    Likes Received:
    0
    Finally a Non-Calvinist who get it!
     
  10. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    OK, granted this verse could be about fellowship with believers (church), I will admit. It could also be to the unbelievers IN the church who are not saved. So often things are dismissed just because of the immediate context, and not compared to the Bible in whole and in part. I was taught to study the Bible using:
    1. What is the overall theme of the Bible, why was it written?
    2. Who is the author talking to, and what is the message to his immediate audience?
    3. How does this relate to my life, and what is God telling me by this?
    4. How does this coincide with #1?
    If someone who is not a believer were to read Revelation 3:10, what would God be telling that person, that "this only is for believers to read, please ignore and move on"? What if they asked you, the believer, what it meant? Would you tell them "it's only for believers"?
     
  11. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,408
    Likes Received:
    70
    I'd tell them that it was Jesus speaking to the church at Laodicea. If they wanted to have such fellowship, I'd give them the gospel using other scriptures. Evangelism is not an excuse for poor hermeneutics.
     
  12. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Stefanm, you know, then, that EVERY person in the church at Laodicea was a believer? Does your church consist of ONLY believers? If you tell an unbeliever Jesus was speaking to the church at Laodicea, you better be prepared to tell them that the church had ONLY believers in it.

    Here's what John Macarthur (calvinist) says about Revelation 3:20 "Rather than allowing for the common interpretation of Christ's knocking on a person's heart, the context demands that Christ was seeking to enter this church THAT BORE HIS NAME BUT LACKED A SINGLE TRUE BELIEVER. This poignant was His knocking..."

    [ August 24, 2005, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: webdog ]
     
  13. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,408
    Likes Received:
    70
    That's not the point. Jesus' words were not a call to the gospel. He was speaking the words to the Laodicean church about a specific problem they had. Can modern churches have the same problem? Yes!

    Rev 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
    Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

    ---
    I think that v. 19 implies that Jesus is speaking to those that are his. This does not require that every person in the Laodicean assembly was a believer, only that Jesus was speaking to less-than-completely-faithful believers.
     
  14. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    Calvinists, and by this thread, some non calvinists say Rev 3:14-22 was to a "church", so therefore they must all be believers. I don't hold to this view. Look at all of the "churches" throughout the world today that compromise of very few believers. The church at Laodicea may have been similar. Verse 14 "These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, The Beginning of the creation of God". The church at Colosse and most likely the church at Laodicea both held that Christ was ONLY a created being, which justifies the phrase "The Beginning of the creation of God". There wouldn't be too many believers in a church that believed Christ was only a created being, and not deity.

    While I do not agree with John Macarthur on things pertaining to calvinism, his commentary on Rev. 3:14-22 has some truths. From verse 20 he says "Rather than allowing for the common interpretation of Christ's knocking on a person's heart, the context demands that Christ was seeking to enter this church THAT BORE HIS NAME BUT LACKED A SINGLE TRUE BELIEVER. This poignant letter was His knocking. If one member would recognize his spiritual bankruptcy and respond in saving faith, He would enter the church."
    I believe commentary on the church is correct, but I believe Jesus was talking to ALL unbelievers individually and literally by "knocking" on a person's heart.
     
  15. StefanM

    StefanM
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2004
    Messages:
    6,408
    Likes Received:
    70
    And, respectfully, I dissent.
     
  16. webdog

    webdog
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,691
    Likes Received:
    0
    :cool: Cool. When a Razorback dissents, I back off :D
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    #1. NO text in all of scripture defines the SAVED "regenerate" state as being "OUT OF UNION WITH CHRIST" (even some Calvinists seem to get this point at times - eh Hardsheller?)

    #2. NO text EVER describes UNION WITH CHRIST as "the sinner ALONE WITHOUT Christ on the INSIDE of the soul and Christ standing ON THE OUTSIDE knocking and waiting for anyone to open the door so that fellowship (UNION) can begin".

    This is so obvious that it is hard to imagine how Clavinist can find ways to obfuscate it.

    The many machinations invented to describe "salvation" As "ALONE on the INSIDE and WITHOUT CHRIST" is amazing -- and yet "it must be done" to save Calvinism!!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    30,837
    Likes Received:
    4
    As usual Webdog comes up with the Biblically sound review of the text.

    It is so neat to be an Arminian and be able to "accept the obvious" in texts such as Rev 3 - instead of having to continually "deny and redefine" the text in attempts to "downsize-for-Calvinism".

    What is the reference for that JM quote?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  19. Monergist

    Monergist
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 14, 2002
    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    0
    Since when is it to "obfuscate" to interpret the text in light of the context?
     
  20. Hardsheller

    Hardsheller
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2002
    Messages:
    3,816
    Likes Received:
    0
    Bob,

    This is not about Calvinism. This is about Proper Biblical Interpretation.

    Here's another non-Calvinist who disagrees with you...

    Dr. Daniel Wallace
     

Share This Page

Loading...