Being "one flesh"

Discussion in '2005 Archive' started by Ben W, May 6, 2005.

  1. Ben W

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    In Ephesians 5:31 we read "For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh".

    What I have been told is that when people are involved outside of marriage is that they become this "one flesh" spiritually. Is this true in your thought on the matter?

    What troubles me about this idea, is what happens when it is not by freewill, and a child is abused, are they one flesh with their abuser?

    How about people that have been involved in freewill relationships prior to marriage with differenet people, are they still one flesh? Is there any precedent in the Bible that prayers to God can break this one flesh bond that is supposed to exist between people?

    I understand if this topic has to be moved to the respective private forums, yet the question is based around a Scripture, and the teaching of that Scripture.
     
  2. TaterTot

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    I believe there is more to becoming "one flesh" than physical intimacy. Certainly, God is not going to legalistically proclaim that a molester and victim are "one flesh" in the sense of that scripture (marriage).

    Becoming one flesh is an emotional action, I'd say, more than a physical one. Leaving and cleaving involves more than just physically moving. One flesh, in my estimation, includes the joining of two lives - meshing and becoming one.
     
  3. Scarlett O.

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    Well, you can't be Biblically "one flesh" with two (or more) different people. That's the problem. I can certainly see where this "one flesh" spiritually idea makes sense. Adultry is never just about sex. It's also about feelings, betrayals, being governed by emotions as well as the body, forgiveness vs. unforgiveness, and other matters that we tend to classify as "spiritual".

    In my opinion, no they are not. The Biblical version of "one flesh" pertains to an adult man and an adult woman giving themselves to each other willingly and freely. The Bible says that the wife's body belongs to the husband and that the husband's body belongs to the wife. "One flesh" between a husband and wife involves a willing surrender to each other.

    The abuse of freewill, as in the case of adultry does cause confusion in the "one flesh" issue addressed by your original question.

    The abuse of a child or abuse of an unwilling adult woman is not an example of "one flesh" because the child or the said woman is a non-consenting person. They have been raped and abused, not joined together in a God-ordained holy state of "one flesh".

    I don't know about a Biblical precedent for breaking a prior bond of "one flesh" that was outside of marriage. But I do know this. People who make sexually mistakes in their lives and who are burdened as they get older and who repent can enter what many people call a "second virginity". Many people have done this. It calls for deep control, a control that can only be maintained by dependence on God, and true repentance while waiting on the one that God has intended for you. It can be done. I believe that with all of my heart.

    Sexual purity is a serious issue with every human that has walked or is walking or will walk the face of the earth.

    No one is exempt.

    Peace-
    Scarlett O.
    <><
     
  4. ituttut

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    It shouldn’t be what we feel, but what God says that counts. Even with a ceremony, and a marriage license to make it all legal, a marriage is not a marriage until it is consummated. The consummation must occur before God recognizes the marriage.

    He does not require filing any papers, earthly license, or any fees. The man with his common law wife is as married as those with papers to prove they are to man. It’s all an open book to God. He knows who gets together and who doesn’t. And it can happen more than once.

    Genesis 2:24. “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” Eve was a helpmate, and yet a wife. At this time they were married without knowing each other, for they were of “one flesh”. But all after their fall could only become “one flesh” by consummating the marriage by physical act of the body.

    Deuteronomy 22:29. “Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.”

    We don’t get to be one by holding hands, and God says they become one. ”What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh”,” 1 Cor. 6:16. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
     
  5. Artimaeus

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    I'm still confused. I have never heard an explanation of "one flesh" which made me say, "Yeah, that's it". What is the effect of this becoming "one flesh" other than the bonding of a married couple (which I completely understand). What is the effect outside of marriage???
     
  6. Karen

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  7. Karen

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    Dear ituttut,
    I would have to disagree with you.

    An analogy would be baptism. Baptism is an incredibly important part of Christian obedience.
    Yet if for some reason it is delayed, the new convert is still a Christian. The thief on the cross was not baptized at all.

    If two people are pronounced married by a minister or justice of the peace following legal procedure, and one or both dies in a car wreck going from the reception to the hotel, they were married.
    A physical relationship is a picture of the reality. It is not a Catholic-type sacrament that creates and defines the reality.

    Married couples exist who never have the physical relationship, because of physical disabilities. And some who had it delayed for years, yet they were still married.
    Far more than one couple in the "Greatest Generation" were married an hour before the new husband left for D-Day or another great battle.

    Karen
     
  8. Pastor Larry

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    Is there somewhere that God said this that we can look it up and study it? What about a couple who, for some reason such as physical, are not able to consummate the marriage? Are they not really married? And assuming that a couple waits until all the guests leave and they get somewhere private to consummate the marriage, what are they in between the time the pastor says "I now pronounce you man and wife" and the time of consummation? If one, perchance, happens to die in that span, are they not really married?

    Suffice it to say, this opinion of yours seems not to have real weight in either practical or theological terms. Marriage is the commitment of two people before God and the authorities God has established to live together in harmony, companionship, and sexual union. Consummation is not required however for a couple to be married.
     
  9. ituttut

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    These are married in the eyes of the world, and all lawful benefits, and all debts are now transferred from one to the other, both sharing equally the good and the bad. But if one of the above in your illustration has an affair with one of the opposite sex, this person is married to one spiritually, and to one legally. I lived in the “greatest generation” and I saw, read, and heard of the many “dear John letters”, and some of those were “married by law”. It was no contest, as the courts saw the act of marriage had not been carried out, and in many instances, both parties were relieved. ituttut
     
  10. Bob Krajcik

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    It is not a Catholic-type sacrament. . .

    Amen!

    As I underswtnd, marriage is regulated by the law, and our law handled by our government. The law says the papers mean something.

    Even if man does not like the law and claims it is not binding on them, the law they have by their government shows them to be accountable and responsible. Without law there is chaos or anarchy, so they are subject to the law and accountable whether they admit it or not. If man is accountable to human government, how much more so to God.

    These are my opinions. The government is getting muddle headed regarding laws, but sometimes so is Christian thought. If the laws of our government is not binding, why is there so much effort to get laws changed?
     
  11. ituttut

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    Pastor Larry: Is there somewhere that God said this that we can look it up and study it? What about a couple who, for some reason such as physical, are not able to consummate the marriage? Are they not really married? And assuming that a couple waits until all the guests leave and they get somewhere private to consummate the marriage, what are they in between the time the pastor says "I now pronounce you man and wife" and the time of consummation? If one, perchance, happens to die in that span, are they not really married?

    Of course there is a place to look it up if we only look, and believe what He says. The verse is in the post that you have answered. ””What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh”,” 1 Cor. 6:16. Marriage has not changed from the beginning as God is still saying the same thing. Christ told Paul to speak again two shall be one flesh, just as He said in Genesis 2, Mark 10, and others.

    Suffice it to say, this opinion of yours seems not to have real weight in either practical or theological terms. Marriage is the commitment of two people before God and the authorities God has established to live together in harmony, companionship, and sexual union. Consummation is not required however for a couple to be married.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Could you have skipped over a few chapters in your Bible? I profess not to deal in theological terms, as I do not work from theory but from His Word. I apply the practical point of view, but only if His Word teaches it. If it doesn’t, then it must be in error.

    Where was the preacher to marry Adam and Eve. All God said was be fruitful and multiply, and they went at it, meaning they were married. Sex within marriage is not a sin, and God made it pleasurable in order to see babies came forth.

    You give me too much credit Larry, believing I came up with the idea of sex is in some way connected to marriage. These are His instructions. Marriage is two bodies merging, just as Paul informs. The marriage ceremony is a civil act to protect both participates for legal purposes. If one breaks the hymen before the civil ceremony, the marriage is made according to God. The formal outward sign is for the benefit of society, and the courts.

    Marriage is the SEX ACT of a man and a woman whether we like it or not. Getting married is a literal willful act of the man and woman, as proved by the Bible. We are Born In Sin, yet the marriage bed remains pure, and we are born into a sinful world as sinners.
     
  12. Liz Ward

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    Then there is no need to get married. is that really what you are saying?

    Liz
     
  13. gb93433

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    Marriage is not just two bodies merging. Cattle do that. People are more than bodies. They have a body, spirit and soul.

    The formal outward sign of marriage is not so much for the benefit of society, and the courts as it is for the commitment and security of the relationship. Marriage in the OT was a contractual agreement. There was an exchange of money. It was guarantee of security and financial protection.
     
  14. Pastor Larry

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    The topic, and my question, was about marriage, not about a harlot. Your verse disproves your own notion. If you were correct, then this man would be getting married. He was not.

    And by this standard, your position is in error. The Bible does not teach that people are not married until the consummate the marriage. That is something man made up.

    God married them. Being married doesn't take a preacher. I never said that it did.

    That's not the only reason God made it pleasurable, but that aside, this is irrelevant to the point at hand.

    I didn't give you credit for it. You are certainly not the first to hold that position, nor are you the first who can't support it from Scripture.

    Where did he or Paul say that? The verse you cited above talks about prostitution and sexual sin, something that is impossible if you are correct.

    Then what do the commands against fornication and adultery mean? If marriage is the sex act, then it is impossible to commit adultery or fornication. You are just getting married again. That makes no sense.

    On this you are correct, but a couple can be married apart from consummation of the marriage.
     
  15. ituttut

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    Hi Artimaeus. Sorry, for just missed your post being addressed to me until yesterday, and been away from my computer. I’m with you, and can understand, for I’ve never heard or read this being fully explained before, to my satisfaction. Upon studying His Word (this is the only place we can find truth) in this matter, I can tell you what I believe on this matter.

    First we must believe that the sexual marriage act is what God means by marriage. Our marriage ceremony is for civil reasons. For those that object to this view reject what Christ from heaven revealed to Paul – I Corinthians 6:16-17, ” What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.” In verse 16 if we have sexual intercourse with a harlot we have a joining of the flesh, so we become one flesh with that person. This tells us this is the only way that two can become one flesh to form a marriage.

    We first see the “one flesh” in Genesis 2:24. I’m sure someone will say, but Adam is the one that said this. But then who was Adam? He was the first Adam, and the second Adam was Jesus. Scripture reveals Adam was the first son of God, for God made him. Jesus was the second Adam for God made Him also in human form from the dust of the ground, Mary. We notice God did not tell Adam he didn’t know what he was talking about. God let stand this, for his son had control over the earth, and the son was pure and without sin in the presence of his Father.

    The next reference we see is in Matthew 19:4-5, and this time it is the Only Begotten Son of God that says it. So we know there is no question about the matter. The coming together of a man and woman makes them one flesh, and they were made that way from the beginning. An interesting sidelight that seems to be foreign to Christians. The wording in Genesis is nothing but startling, and brings home that the married man and woman are really one flesh when she is his wife. Chapter 5 verse 2, ”Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created. There is neither male nor female in heaven, or paradise for the woman is of Adam, just as we are of God.

    We notice God never addressed the Woman until she sinned. God did not call here Eve, and neither did Adam until after the fall. This to me means they were separated and the only way they could ever again be One Flesh was by the sexual act. They were man and wife as neither had sex with anyone else. This act of marriage is created to make them one with another, and one to God. God is a God of division, as He tells us in Genesis 1:1, and continues on throughout the Bible. But He also brings together again, e.g. the Red Sea.

    This also explains why God addresses and gives authority to man, and not to the woman. They were originally One Adam to God, for she was bone of Adams bone, and flesh of Adams flesh. This is the reason God deals with the man as the man is the head of the woman, just as Christ is the head of the man – I Corinthians 11:3.

    So what of verse 17 above, “But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.” Jesus had to be born into this world, bone of our bone, and flesh of our flesh. So today we are baptized with our One Spiritual baptism into the Body of Christ, and it is forever. Our resurrected glorified bodies will be as the Body of Christ, for we shall be like Him – I John 3:2. In these bodies the man and woman become one flesh, and in heaven we become one with Christ, being a son of God.

    As to your question, “What is the effect outside of marriage?” Looking again at I Corinthians 6:16-17 we see the man and the woman has become “One Flesh”. Yes, but they are not recognized by the world as being one, but they are with God. This is something that will condemn the unsaved in illicit sex, but not the saved. Either of these can be saved afterwards. If the man was saved, you can bet he’ll quit such behavior pronto, and if not his reprimand will be great down here, and I believe lost works as he stands before Christ at our rewards ceremony.

    Being Once Saved Always Saved means just that, and nothing we can ever do will take us out of Him. We sin, but the sin has already been forgiven, for we are dead to sin. We are in the Body of Christ, which has made us righteous. Colossians 1:21:22, ”And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22. In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:”

    Are there many Christians that fall as Satan daily tempts and tries us with our lusts for sex, food, drinking, money, etc.? I don’t really know. But if we are saved we can fall away, but not out of the Body of Christ.

    One thing we do know though is that continuous fornication means one is not saved, and perverted sex cannot be condoned in the life of the Christian. I Corinthians 5:1, ”It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.” Fornication is not only illicit sexual intercourse, but also all types of sexual perversion. Paul says even among the pagan Gentiles, there is one among them fornicating with his father’s wife. This is evidently so heinous, even for a pagan, that this must be the man’s mother. Paul says get that guy out of there, and have nothing to do with him, as he is Satan’s.

    The purpose of marriage for we earthlings is to ”be fruitful, and multiply” I believe a Christian marriage is a HOLY UNION of a man and his wife being unified into one flesh by the act of becoming one at the instance of copulation, as this is the only way for His purpose to be carried out.

    I hope this will help, as I believe this is scriptural, and that is all that we have to go on – the Word of God. All else can be found in other books. The above may be found in other books of those that correctly divide the Word, and they are probably out there, for I do not feel I am the only one that God has answered for a correct rendering of His Word in this matter. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
     
  16. ituttut

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    Hello Bob. I'm getting a little behind on posting, with yard work; Wife and I been to Doctors everyday this week for various tests, etc.

    Thanks for the post, and agree. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
     
  17. ituttut

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    QUOTE]Originally posted by Liz Ward:
    Then there is no need to get married. is that really what you are saying?

    Liz
    [/QUOTE]

    Do you mean the civil ceremony Liz? I believe it is good to show society that two are living together, and have officially (as far outward appearances) tied the knot. And yes it should be done for legal reason’s to protect both and any children they may have.

    Common law marriages in many states, and countries are just as valid as getting a marriage license from the County, State or from whomever it is required. The marriage license shows upon completion, and signed by a preacher, judge, or whomever, notarized, and recorded by the State, that the two on the date of the ceremony are considered legally[/b] married. But the two may not have already become “one flesh”, so the marriage is not consummated until this happens. There is no problem of having a marriage annulled when nothing has happened. But in the eyes of the Law, the two are considered married. Those of “common law” are “one flesh” but do not have the protection of the law, unless they later on file for their legal rights.

    Those of "common" marriage are just as married as those that have a certificate to prove it. Society has need, or believe they do to have certificates for all kind of things, such as High School Diplomas, College’ BA, Masters, Doctorics, etc to show that they have done certain things. But a marriage certificate is different as it gives permission for the two to have their legal rights protected at the time of the legal ceremony, and has nothing to do with giving permission to consummate the marriage. That is up to the two participates to initiate and perform. But all certificates, diplomas, agreements, etc. are only as good as those that hold them. The marriage certificate is the only one that is nullified on a regular basis and after divorcee not worth the paper it is written on, other than to say a vow has been broken. The marriage bed is not violated, as this sex act is condoned and commanded by God for two to become “one flesh”.

    My bible says “Be Fruitful and Multiply”, so yes I say get together in the pleasure as Sarah put its (Genesis 18:12), with or without a license that may or may not be required by man. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
     
  18. ituttut

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    gb93433:Marriage is not just two bodies merging. Cattle do that. People are more than bodies. They have a body, spirit and soul.

    Amen! That’s the difference between we, and the animals along with all others created for this earth. God is a Holy Trinity, and we are made up of three also. We have intellect, emotions, and will, which none of the others have.

    For just about any species of creation to procreate contact is usually a must, and I’d dare say those that do copulate in a manner as we find enjoyment. But we are the only ones made in the Image of God, and I’m sure He thought we would appreciate and thank Him for giving us this command to become one. He says I condone it, do it, and enjoy it while you are doing it for this is what I made you for. Through a line of my choosing, God said, and the act of the man and the woman “becoming one flesh”, I will intervene and make from the dust of the ground my Only Begotten Son.

    And then what? Christ Jesus has an inheritance coming, and we today are it. There was not in prophecy allowance for this, and there is not allowance for it after the rapture. There is a “kingdom of Christ’, and a kingdom of God”. If God had not given the command for a man and a woman to come together “as one flesh”, what was His purpose to begin with?

    Satan has caused man to believe Sex is dirty. I don’t believe Sex in marriage of “a man and a woman coming together in the flesh to obey the command of God is dirty”. I just will not contribute to a worldly view that the married couple is doing something “dirty or degrading”. It was not to be so from the beginning.

    The formal outward sign of marriage is not so much for the benefit of society, and the courts as it is for the commitment and security of the relationship. Marriage in the OT was a contractual agreement. There was an exchange of money. It was guarantee of security and financial protection.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I’ll not argue your point for in a dispensation, what you say is true. All social settings institute their own regulations for marriage. Ours today are not the same as for God’s OT nation of Israel. We are in no way to associate ourselves with the Jew, as today there is no difference. We do not live under the Law of Moses, or any ordinances of their law.

    To me marriage is like our salvation today. When we become one flesh, if the law of the land says we must do something to prove it, we do it. When we are saved, we are saved, but we are then to work out our own salvation.

    It is not disired, or possible that we are to try and emulate what we cannot be, and that is try to be as the Jew. We cannot be these, His people, the nation, the house of Israel that had we Gentile’s crucify their Messiah. I don’t wish to be part of that society that refused the Word of God, the Only Begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior.

    It is not the ceremony that counts, it is the Act of Marriage that seals, and it is our believing on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, that we become one with Him, and are sealed. We are going to a wedding with the Bridegroom in the future. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
     
  19. ituttut

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    Pastor Larry: The topic, and my question, was about marriage, not about a harlot. Your verse disproves your own notion. If you were correct, then this man would be getting married. He was not.

    But we are talking about marriage. I believe Paul is talking about marriage as they are now “one flesh”. Do you have scripture/s that says otherwise? But the marriage is different. Paul says one mating with a harlot becomes one flesh with the man. This is what the first Adam said, and Jesus Christ the second Adam said. Paul is not saying anything different, other than the wording is different with example. Yet the harlot is not a wife of the man, even though they are of one flesh now. They are married but not as man and wife, for they are now “one in the flesh” in the sin of the lust of the flesh. This is not the blessed spiritual setting of Holy Matrimony of coming together as “one flesh” as outlined from the beginning.

    Jesus tells us the same thing in His encounter with the Samaritan woman in John 4:18. She had been married five times, but the one she now has, and of one flesh, is not her husband. It is the bonding of the two in their lust of the flesh. She is an adulteress according to Mark 10:12, ”And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.”

    Pastor Larry: And by this standard, your position is in error. The Bible does not teach that people are not married until the consummate the marriage. That is something man made up.

    Are you saying there are other Standard’s to go by other than the Bible? Agree that the Word became man, but He did not just make it up.

    Pastor Larry: God married them. Being married doesn't take a preacher. I never said that it did.

    God married them to begin with and they were of “one flesh”, named Adam, for only after Eve worshipped an idol, did God address the Woman. This is where God separated the man and the woman that He had married when He saw them as “one in Adam”. After the fall it was then up to Adam and Eve to again become one by performing the required marriage act, to be recognized by God again as “one flesh” in Adam. The man is the head of this union, as Christ is the head of man in the Body of Christ, and God is the head of Christ.

    Pastor Larry: That's not the only reason God made it pleasurable, but that aside, this is irrelevant to the point at hand.

    I am addressing the subject of marriage.

    Pastor Larry. I didn't give you credit for it. You are certainly not the first to hold that position, nor are you the first who can't support it from Scripture.

    There is scripture herein for you to refute. Disprove what is furnished and it will have to come from a source that one believes rather than His Word.

    Pastor John: Where did he or Paul say that? The verse you cited above talks about prostitution and sexual sin, something that is impossible if you are correct.

    Then please explain away the wording of ”for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.” What did Jesus mean when He said in Mark 10:8, “And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.” It has not changed from the beginning that “one flesh” means marriage, whether it is of a wife - husband, or man – harlot. The marriage of a husband – wife alliance is sanctioned by God, and the man – harlot is not.

    Pastor John: Then what do the commands against fornication and adultery mean? If marriage is the sex act, then it is impossible to commit adultery or fornication. You are just getting married again. That makes no sense.

    Agree it is confusing, but we cannot deny the plain Word of God that there is only one possible way for a man and a woman to come together to form a union of one. There is no other way than by a male sperm (seed) induced into the woman to produce a “one” flesh of the two. The two have to become of “one flesh” to accomplish this trinity of reproduction.

    Pastor John: On this you are correct, but a couple can be married apart from consummation of the marriage.
    </font>[/QUOTE]And you're correct that a couple can be married in the eyes of the world without consummation of the marriage. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
     
  20. Pastor Larry

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    The verse itself says otherwise. Paul says "harlot" not "wife." Therefore, it is clear that Paul is not talking about marriage.

    Yes, and Paul does not talk about a wife; he talks about a harlot. The sexual union certainly has a bonding affect, but that is not all that marriage is. Being "one flesh" is the result of sexual union, not the cause of marriage.

    Exactly.

    There is no other way to be married unless it is as man and wife, using "marriage" for what it means in the context of this discussion.

    Which again shows that marriage is more than sex. Having sex with someone does not make you married to them.

    Not at all. I am saying that we should go only by the Bible, and on that basis, we must reject your idea that people aren't married until they have sex.

    That is purely speculative, and given your previous confession to go strictly by Scripture, it is surprising. We don't know that God didn't address Eve before the fall. There is no evidence from Scripture than they had to "become one again." That is a prime case of a desired conclusion taking over the text of Scripture. Stick with what Scripture says.

    Yes, without a doubt. But that is not really the issue here.

    Are you talking about the Scripture you posted in this post? I see nothing even remotely connected to your point. Your own texts disprove you, as I have shown.

    So now you are saying that one flesh refers to procreation? Surely not ... People who are not married can do that, once again disproving your whole notion of marriage here.

    It seems clear that you have no Scripture that supports you. You tried to take a verse about adultery and make it mean something about marriage. You tried to take Gen 3 and find a command in there to become one flesh again after the fall. That just won't work.
     

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