Being Slain in the Spirit? Part Two

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Bible-boy, Feb 9, 2006.

  1. Bible-boy

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  2. Don

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    (just a quick note: I stand corrected on my post, and thanks for the reference to John 18)
     
  3. music4Him

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    By these scriptures, this is why some believe that one can be slain in the Spirit. Some were already saved..... some were not at the time but were gonna be. The jury is still out on the guards at the tomb. :D

    Matt 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.

    Mark 9:26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.

    John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

    Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

    Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
     
  4. DHK

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    3 of your 5 references are similies, figures of speech, indicated by the word "as." They were "as dead men." It is a figure of speech not to be taken literally.
    The other two references simply indicate that they fell. Is it any great thing for Saul to fall of his horse once his attention is diverted by a great light. No, I don't think so. If the horse itself reared up, I think any person would have fallen. So why make such a big fuss over something you cannot prove.
    The only remaing verse in John is when the soldiers confronted Jesus, who when he declared himself as Jehovah, fell back. They had just met the one, God almighty, who had declared his deity. This was a display of the power of God through God manifest in the flesh. Jesus did many signs and wonders while on this earth. The crowd's reaction here was only typical of the power of Christ's declaration of who he really was. They were coming with the intent to arrest the very one who had just claimed to be deity. The force of those words caused them to fear greatly and they fell back as a result of it. This has nothing to do with being slain in the Spirit. Would to God you people would study your Bibles more. Don't try to make modern phenomena, unknown in Christianity for 1900 years fit into the Bible. You have pre-conceived ideas and you try to justify them by taking Scripture out of its context and making it a pretext for your own pre-conceived ideas.
    DHK
     
  5. Ray Berrian

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    DHK,

    Again, I have caught you injecting words into the N.T. Scripture that are not there. The best one yet is that Saul was riding a horse. Did he have on a white or black cowboy hat? You even got the horse rearing up so Saul fell to the ground. How clever of you.

    If I am reading Scripture correctly I do not think the Bible says he was riding any animal even a donkey. Saul may have been walking.

    And your word, 'as' simply means he fell to the ground and it appeared as if he were dead. After a period of time, which we do not know how long, Saul got up from the ground. In all cases mentioned it was not the words that Jesus said only that caused the soldiers to fall, but because His awesome power attended his message to them.

    When people get closer to the Lord He begins to manifest Himself through the Holy Spirit in various ways. Who are we as human beings to tell the Lord who created the galaxies how or what He can do in the lives of His created beings?
     
  6. DHK

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    No, I am not interjecting anything. I am simply giving what makes the most sense.
    It is true that there are some that believe that Saul was walking. The Scriptures don't say one way or another, whether he was walking or riding. So let's look at the context and examine to see what facts we do know, and deduce from those which would best fit the context of the story.

    1. Saul, at this point was a dignitary. He was a member of the Sanhedrin, with letters from the highest authorities to bring Christians "bound to Jerusalem" (9;2)
    2. He was traveling from Damascus to Jerusalem with a large company of men. Such a dignitary, a man of his stature would not travel such a distance on foot. He could have been riding a donkey such as Balaam did, or Christ did. But a horse would be more likely as the Roman soldiers rode them. He was a man of great influence.
    3. Consider the verse:
    Acts 9:1 And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,
    --This is a phrase demanding a sense of urgency and haste. Paul was not on a picnic taking a stroll. There was a sense of urgency and haste in his mission in persecuting Christians. He papers of authority and he had to get his job done quickly. It was urgent. A horse was needed. There was no time to take a stroll all the way from Damascus to Jerusalem, and Saul was a man of such stature that he didn't need to stoop to walking. He could afford to have his own horse, or be given one for this very important work of the high priest.
    It doesn't say that he was or wasn't. One must ascertain from the context what fits best, as I have done above. Commentaries written by Matthew Henry and Burkitt agree with me.
    Matt 28:4 And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
    --What does this verse have to do with anything?
    So they became AS dead mem? What does that mean? It doesn't mean they fell, or were slain in the spirit, or anything similar. You are really wrenching the Scriptures out of context here.
    First it is speaking of unsaved soldiers.
    Secondly, it doesn't say they fell. As I said, it is a simile, a figure of speech. They became as dead men, which can mean many things in this context. They froze--right in the position that they were in. They "swooned." They were paralyzed. Who knows? It doesn't say. It doesn't say that they fell at all. It simply says they became AS dead men.

    Mark 9:26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
    --Again a verse taken way out of context.
    Consider the context (which you people obviously haven't read:

    Mark 9:17-18 And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit; And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.

    So you equate a dumb boy having the symptoms of an epileptic with a grand mal seizure as being slain in the spirit. Well, yes, epileptics do fall to the ground. So do demon-possessed people, as this person was. So if we are consistent in our hermeneutics here, Jesus cast the demon out. Therefore being slain in the spirit is equivalent to being demon possession according to the Scripture provided by you.

    Is demon possession drawing closer to the Lord?
    DHK
     
  7. tamborine lady

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    [​IMG]

    DHK said: (in response to a post by Music) 3 of your 5 references are similies, figures of speech, indicated by the word "as." They were "as dead men." It is a figure of speech not to be taken literally.

    Tam says: Well naturally they were "as" dead. She never said they were really dead. Sheesh!

    As far as the soldiers falling, when Jesus said "I am he", that's what I said! It was the power of God that caused them to faii!! That's what we have been telling you!!

    It's the POWER of God that makes people fall!!
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Peace,

    Tam
     
  8. DHK

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    Right on Tam! So take your theology of being slain in the spirit to the army bases, and go to Iraq where the soldiers are, and win them to the Lord by making sure they fall down under the influence of banging their heads on the floor. These were unsaved soldier who had come to capture Jesus. Read the context Tam. And then apply it as such.
    DHK
     
  9. Ray Berrian

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    tamborine lady,

     
  10. music4Him

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    DHK, you act as though being slain in the Spirit is something we can turn off and on as we will. Well sorry to burst you bubble but at the church I have been attending it is not like it happens all the time. I posted the scriptures to point out that in fact something was happening to the saved and unsaved when Jesus showed up and or when the power of the Lord was strong.
     
  11. eloidalmanutha

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    In order to "prove" that a person can be "slain in the spirit" by today's standards, you would have to give Biblical confirmation that a true believer under the New Covenant dispensation of the Holy Spirit [Pentecost] "fell backwards under the power" in the NT. Is there an example of this?
     
  12. DHK

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    Since it is not a Biblical doctrine and cannot be demonstrated as such, I would question by which spirit one is being slain??
     
  13. Ray Berrian

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    eloidalmanutha,

    Some people on this board think there is a godly way to fall and an ungodly want to fall. I find this curious and foolish and think they ought to find something in Scripture with some spiritual meat to feed their starving souls.
     
  14. eloidalmanutha

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    It makes me sad, really. I was once part of it all. The never ending search to find the "glory" to "feel" God. The better the experience, the "more" God you had. It became obssessive - a cycle that could not be stopped. Ever searching for "more power", more of the supernatural. Instead, all God wants is us, in faith, to believe He exists and His reward will be to know Him in heart, soul, and mind, not on flesh, not in the flesh, not in experience - but "in" Spirit - not manifested spirit, but in Spirit and in Truth to "know" Him through His Word.
     
  15. Ray Berrian

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    In the "Baptist Only" section on the subject I read about "Charismatics Lean . . ." DHK will love this read.

    Finally, some other brethren believe in I Corinthians 12 & 14 within the Body of Christ.

    No one should search for experiences with the Lord but when they come to you--you will understand. It only happened to me once but it was a milestone in my Christian life that strengthened by faith by 'leaps and bounds.'

    Don't seek experiences in the faith; seek to know the Lord better as He reveals Himself to you through the Word of God--the Bible.
     
  16. DHK

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    Ray understand that what you have just written is a slanderous statement. You (and perhaps other Charismatics) are not the only ones that believe in 1Cor. 12 & 14 as you falsely infer. That is slander. We do believe in every chapter, and verse in the Bible. I also believe that you have the wrong interpretation of these verses, and "wrongly" divide the word of truth. You have been mislead, and do not take all the Scriptures into account.
    Experiences not based on the Word of God need to be rejected immediately.
    You should have followed your own advice.
     
  17. Bible-boy

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    Hello Ray,

    I must remind you that it is a violation of the BB Posting Rules to question the depth of faith (or salvation) of other posters.

    No one in this discussion has sought to deny this as you are claiming. In fact, DHK has given a fine exposition of the related text above and shown that what took place resulted from the fact that Jesus briefly flashed (or revealed) His deity when He spoke the words, "I am he" (John 18:5, ESV). Remember that God identified Himself to Moses at the burning bush with these same words, "I AM WHO I AM" (EX. 3:14).

    However, there is a great difference between what took place here (in John 18:5-6) and what you describe as being slain in the Spirit today. According to your own description being slain in the Spirit is a blessing from the Lord as He draws near to you. However, the text of John 18 does not mention or imply that Jesus blessed His persecutors in any way. Therefore, the text does not support your argument. The two experiences are not remotely similar or related other than the shared fact that some people happen to fall down.

    Yes, how about them? What is your point?

    Yes, He has given us this information in the Bible. What is your point?

    Yes, the Bible tells us that all these people fell down. However, we have closely examined these texts over and over and each time shown that you have to resort to eisegesis of the text in order to force it to support being slain in the Spirit (as you describe it).

    Again, you agreed that eisegesis was an unacceptable hermeneutical method and that it leads to improper exposition and flawed biblical interpretation. However, when the tried and true hermeneutical method of exegesis results in a conflict with your predetermined belief system you chuck it (exegesis) out the window so that you can maintain and embrace your presupposition regarding this issue.

    Your stated belief in the principles of hermeneutics and the practical working out of your Theological position on this issue do not agree. You have given intellectual assent to the principles of sound hermeneutics and solid exegesis. However, when they result in a conflict with your presupposition on this issue you embrace eisegesis. This is a violation of the Law of Non-contradiction (to which you also previously agreed), and as such makes your entire line of argumentation here invalid.


    This is another contradiction in your line of argumentation. According to you in the above quote being slain in the Spirit is an "activity [of the Lord] in the lives of saved people." However, you try to use verses that show unsaved persecutors of Christ (John 18:5-6) and persecutors of Christians (Acts 26:14) as proof texts that the Lord blesses saved people by slaying them in the Spirit. Do you not see the contradiction and utter foolishness attempting to argue your point in this manner?

    I agree that He does not need my permission (or anyone else's) to act how He sees fit. However, He has revealed to us in His Word how He acts and that He never changes. Therefore, it is very reasonable for us to expect for Him to continue acting in the same manner in which He has revealed, and it is not so reasonable for us to expect Him to act otherwise.
     
  18. Ray Berrian

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    With Paul and John the Revelator they were slain in the Spirit as the Lord sovereignly chose to do. This is why we cannot instruct Him today not to touch the lives of those He desires in this special way.

    As to the soldiers they were unsaved and they were slain by God to show them that He is infinitely more powerful than their flesh and bone bodies. What they did after their experience of being knocked down by the mighty power of the Spirit of God will have been their decision. Did it cause them to believe in Jesus? Did it merely convict them that they were in the Presence of the Divine One and yet remain in their sins? I do not see the Scripture saying too much about it other than the one soldier later declared his faith by saying something like, "Truly this man was the Son of God." [Luke 23:47]. Was he one of those soldiers who were knocked down? I do not think we can difinitively say one way or another. Luke does say, 'The soldier glorified the Lord God.' Sure sounds like it please God and that he was saved and made fit for Heaven.
     
  19. eloidalmanutha

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    If we look at Paul's and John's experience carefully, I don't think we can see any similarity between what happened to them and what is known today as "slain in the spirit".

    Typically, being "slain" today is brought on by a touch, a shout, or by blowing. The intendee falls backward and is usually caught and laid down. Often women's legs are covered so as to be discreet. Although there are more "violent" "slayings" - this is the typical manner in which one is "slain in the spirit".

    In contrast, Paul fell before Jesus as did John. They were fully conscious and "fell" before Him in fear. It was a direct revelation of Jesus to these men, not a "Holy Ghost moment". They both beheld the Glory of God.

    If we look at the account of the soldiers when they fell backwards and again at the resurrection when they were as dead men, there was no spiritual experience - in other words, they were not looking to "receive something from God". I believe if you compare these occurances, they could be compared to the judgment of God for what they were doing to Jesus. If you look at "falling backward" situations in the OT, they indicate judgment.

    Let's look at the context of the soldier giving witness:

    Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the Holy Place was torn in the middle.
    46 And crying with a loud voice, Jesus said, Father, "into Your hands I commit My spirit." And saying this, He breathed out the spirit.
    47 And seeing the thing happening, the centurion glorified God, saying, Truly, this Man was righteous.
    48 And all the crowd arriving together at this sight, watching the thing happening, beating their breasts, they returned.

    It appears that it was a terrifying experience, for the people present beat their breasts and so the centurian glorified God by recognizing the validity of Jesus at His death, not when He was arrested.
     
  20. Pete

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    Well better pick other proof texts, because (as usual) none of that set have anything to do with today's "slain in the spirit" goings on... :rolleyes: [​IMG]

    Matt 28:4 is the guards response to seeing an angel of the Lord. Fear, shaking, and fainting. Hardly the "Peaceful Easy Feeling" (© The Eagles) slain advocates suggest is it?

    Mark 9:26 an evil spirit gives it's victim one final shake on the way out....Did God knock the young boy down? What does verse 27 say (anyone read that far after the falling over?) Mark 9:27 But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up.

    John 18:6 just WHO was Jesus speaking to here? The 12? Peter, James and John? No, the soldiers coming to arrest Him. The voice of the One who could have called on His Father for more than 12 legions of angels declared to these men just who they were coming to arrest. When the men recovered they were so blessed by the experience they didn't arrest Jesus...hmmmmmm?

    Acts 9:4 ...Worn out in the first thread, but a reminder for those who missed it: This was a persecutor of the Church meeting the Head of the Church he was persecuting. (Hey, maybe God should do this today, as Saul at that stage probably twisted almost as many passages as the SITS advocates today do...)

    Rev 1:17 another repeat from the first thread. John didn't just fall-amen-here-endeth-the-lesson-knock-me-down-Jesus ... Read down 2 verses, Jesus tells John to write what he has seen. Where are all these new books of the Bible that we should have today if this is SITS hmmm?

    Sorry, 0/5


    Remember though Tam, it was also the POWER of God that knocked down the walls of Jericho...these men at the time were in a worse position before God than Jericho ever was. A worse position than Sodom & Gomorrah. When Jesus declared who He was to these men...well...we are not told, but I imagine them feeling like they were only a few feet away from finding out how dreadful a thing it is to fall into the hands of the living God.

    As mentioned above and in previous thread, when Saul fell he was in a similar state.


    Again Ray, only one of those was a Christian when he fell, and God gave us a book of the Bible through the vision He gave him.

    Any SITS fans want to post their new books of the Bible for the rest of us?

    Nope, it's Scriptural backing by Scripture twisting :rolleyes: :(
     

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