1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Beliefs

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Carico, Oct 15, 2009.

  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,536
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yes, I acknowledged that possibility, I said it was a functional word. This is idiomatic to Hebrew much like English but worse, one word can function with many meanings which often times makes a translation word choice difficult, occassionaly the meaning cannot even be determined by the context because more than one of the functional meanings will fit.

    In addition if one translates from the the ancient Hebrew before the Masora was codified, there are no vowel points confusing the issue even more.

    Oops, DUG is actually DUR. After going back to look at the word I see that it ends with a Resh and not a Gimmel.

    The vowel points are what determine the word DUR as to its function. The letters are Daleth-Vav-Resh.
    When the Vav has a dagesh point it turns the letter into a Shurek and indicates that the Masoretes determined the word to have a form, shape or a compassing function:

    Isaiah 22:18 He will surely violently turn and toss thee like a ball into a large country: there shalt thou die, and there the chariots of thy glory shall be the shame of thy lord's house.​

    Isaiah 29:3 And I will camp against thee round about, and will lay siege against thee with a mount, and I will raise forts against thee.​

    You said...

    I'll say this way, IMO, the use of the word KOOG for "circle" in the Hebrew Scripture is correct as 2 dimensional and is never used as "sphere".​

    I challenge you to show me an occassion in the Hebrew Scripture (not German) where the word KOOG is used as a "sphere" or "ball" such as the word DUR.​

    HankD
     
    #61 HankD, Oct 18, 2009
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2009
  2. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's not quite correct. The Hebrew word Chuwg means a flat-circle like a coin as already noted. The Hebrew word for a sphere like a ball is Duwr. However, it is duwr, not chuwg, that is not exclusively a word for sphere. Duwr can also simply refer to an infite space.

    The German word for "ball", btw, is "ball".
     
    #62 Johnv, Oct 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2009
  3. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    I grew up in a beach town in Florida, and to my eyes I could see the curvature of the earth north to south. When you can see that much expanse, you can see the slight curvature. And as you said, we could see the ships coming in, especially the large ships like aircraft carriers that came into Mayport a naval base about 10 miles north of where I lived. You would see the mast several minutes before the superstructure came into view.
     
  4. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    No it doesn't. It means "round". The Corresponding word in the Greek Septuagint is "Kamaran" which means a 3 dimensional arch, or curvature. This, coupled with the generic term "chug" which just means "round" would demand a 3 dimensional round shape. Besides personal study, I have about 12 different Hebrew resources: not a single one of them indicate the meaning of a "flat disk". Since this would be completely incompatible with the word used in the Greek Septuagint, which demands a three dimensional curvature, you have absolutely no basis for what you are saying.

    Actually, this word means a "chunk" or "mound", which may or may not be spherical, or the compass of that object. (can refer to a square chunk of rock)

    The German dish "Kugel" comes from an ancient Germanic root meaning "ball" or "sphere". This term has it's roots in Yiddish, which some believe borrowed the term from Hebrew.The term is still used in Geometry..

    If you can understand German, you can look here:http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kugel
     
    #64 Havensdad, Oct 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2009
  5. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    This is impossible. Either that, or the people who translated the Septuagint were idiots, who did not know Hebrew. It has to be a three dimensional curved shape.

    Not only that, no Hebrew lexicon translates this word as a flat disk. So basically all the people who know the most, disagree with you.

    This is completely unsubstantiated. There is no actual historical evidence to back this up: it is based on an atheistic, naturalistic interpretation of scripture, and I am surprised that any Christian would appeal to it.

    As already shown, from the Greek Word, which is a three dimensional curvature, and the Hebrew word, which, as already shown, is the generic word for round (at least, in every Hebrew lexicon), the translation demands a spherical shape: the only thing that could fit both.
     
  6. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, "Duwr" can, in context, refer to a mound. Duwr can refer to a two dimensional space or three dimensional space. OTOH, "chuwg" is generally referring to a disc-shaped space, not a sphere-shaped space. The "arch" reference isn't one of dimensionality, it's one of expanse (it requires some eisegesis here to make "chuwg" a sphere). The context of chuwg isn't not spherical, and the meaning in the passage "he who sits upon the circle of the earth" is by no means an attempt by the author to define a spherical shape.
     
  7. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    It refers to ANY shape, not necessarily a circular one.

    The word DOES NOT mean a flat disc. It just means circle, or round.

    Yes, it is. The Greek Word Kamaron means curved or arched. It implies a circular shape, not an "expanse".

    The two words used, one which means circular, and the other which means a three dimensional curve, demands a sphere. That is exactly what the author intended.
     
  8. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    I guess you have some atheist garnered answer for this one, too...

    Job 26:7 He stretches out the north over the void and hangs the earth on nothing.

    How did the Hebrew writers know that the earth was free floating?
     
  9. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    but it doesn't have a definition of "sphere" as we know it. It use in "he who sits upon the circle of the earth" was not intended to describe a person sitting on a sphere. To imply that is exegetically absent, and eisegetically incorrect.
    Again, a curve at its edge, not a three dimensional sphere as we understand it.
     
  10. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    It is the word "circle" or "round". It is the only word that could have been used, to denote a definitively round shape.

    Again, in conjunction with the word for "curved" in the Greek, it is exegetically demanded! No other interpretation could even fit.

    Also, once again: NO Hebrew lexicon demands a "flat" or "two dimensional" shape for this word. It simply means round, or circle. You are imposing flatness, with absolutely no basis.

    Not at all. Kamaron means "Curved, circular in shape, or arched."

    Why do you feel it necessary to attack this so vigorously? Does it really offend you so badly, that God's Word teaches that the Earth is round? Since it is God's infallible Word, it SHOULD teach this, should it not?

    I am having a major problem with the attitude you are exhibiting: you act as if the deity of Christ were being attacked, rather than God's Word being upheld...
     
  11. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    Well, I don't know how someone can sit on top of a 2 dimensional circle, but someone could sit on top of a globe or sphere.

    From other conversations with Johnv, I don't think he likes to believe that the scriptures are scientifically correct.
     
  12. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Totally off topic here, and I apologize in advance.

    We might be arguing incorrectly here. I'm curious why you're using the word "round" as a definition of a sphere. "Round" carries a definition of a circular shape, not a sphereical shape. A circle is two deminsional, not three dimensional. Ask any math teacher. Heck, ask any carpenter.

    That's why I'm concurring with your exegetics, but disagreeing with your eisegetics.
    Sit in the center of a coin. You're not sigging in a circle. That's roughly the context of the passage.
    That's an ad hominem, which are generally frowned upon, and I'm surprised that you would stoop that low.
     
    #72 Johnv, Oct 19, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2009
  13. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    Draw a circle in your driveway with chalk and sit on it :)
     
  14. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    (double post... sorry)
     
  15. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    The scriptures show the earth as three dimensional, not two.

    Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

    Prov 25:3 The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.

    Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

    Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
     
  16. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Yes, but that's not the same as saying scripture describes a spherical earth.
     
  17. webdog

    webdog Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2005
    Messages:
    24,696
    Likes Received:
    2
    I don't think anyone's arguing it isn't. Anyone who is not blind knows it is, saved and lost alike. I think the disagreement is in the text being used to show a circle must mean sphere. A sphere is a circle, but the converse is not also always true as is being argued. A coin is not a sphere, tire is not a sphere, etc.
     
  18. Winman

    Winman Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    14,768
    Likes Received:
    2
    I realize that a circle is not a sphere, but a sphere is a circle, but if you put all the scriptures together I believe it strongly implies the earth is a sphere.

    And verses that show that the earth is a sphere where it is day on one side, and night on another are in Luke.

    Luke 17:34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
    35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
    36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


    You see in verse 34 that it is night and men are in bed, but in verse 36 it is day and men are in the field.
     
  19. Havensdad

    Havensdad New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2007
    Messages:
    3,382
    Likes Received:
    0
    A sphere IS round, when measured two dimensionally. We do this all the time: it is called a circumference. This is also normal usage, in nearly every language in the world. Only with the relatively recent developments in geometry, has there become such a distinction between "round" or "circle" and spherical. A person living a thousand years B.C., would just say "the ball is round".

    Again: Chug is the only word that could have been used to denote a specifically curved or circular shape. Had the word "dur" been used, it would have denoted God as sitting on top of a pile, or heap.

    No, unless the Septuagint translators are completely wrong. Because He is sitting ON a circular object, which is also three dimensionally curved, or circular. That can only be a ball or sphere.
     
  20. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    That's a misapplication of the passage. You can no more imply a spherical earth from that passage that you can imply that the Coming of the Kingdom of God will occur at night, or that there are two people in every bed.
     
Loading...