believe, belief, faith, believe "in"

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by billwald, Jul 10, 2005.

  1. billwald

    billwald
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    Those who "believe in" Jesus are saved but no one has control over one's beliefs. A belief is a conclusion based upon some kind of information, data analysis.
     
  2. StefanM

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    Belief in a person is total trust in that individual. A certain belief can be mere mental assent to a fact/presumption/theory.
     
  3. bmerr

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    billwald,

    bmerr here. You are correct. The Bible tells us in Rom 10:17 that "...faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

    When man hears the message of the gospel, he must be convinced in his mind that he is in the wrong in relation to God before he will obey the commands of the gospel.

    Even belief of the facts of the gospel, and one's own wrong standing before God, however, is not always enough to cause people to obey the gospel.

    Belief in Christ is easy. Confessing Christ before men is easy, too. Submitting to baptism is not too difficult. But repentance? That's a whole other matter.

    To repent means that I have to CHANGE, and many are just not willing to. They think Heaven costs too much, basically.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  4. DHK

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    Baptism is a work. It is like taking out the garbage. You do it because you are told to do it. There is no faith involved in it. There is no beleif involved in it. It is entirely a work of man. It is a work of obedience. If a child doesn't take out the garbage what is the result. Does he now forfeit his right to be a part of the family, give up the family name, and his inheritance--all for the sake of disobeying one command. Of course not. Baptism is a simple command to the Christian, the one who has already been saved, the one who is already part of the family of God. Is God going to cast him out of His family just because he disobeyed one of his commands. God forbid! Of course He isn't. And yet this is the COC teaching.

    It does take faith to believe the gospel, for belief in the gospel is belief in the words of Christ that if you have faith in His promise to receive Him as Saviour, trusting in His Sacrificial work, then he will forgive your sin and grant unto you eternal life. The faith is in the Word of another, a promise that gives a result.
    Taking out the garbage is a command not a promise.
    Getting baptized is a command not a promise.
    There is no efficacious result in either one. There is no faith required in either one.
    DHK
     
  5. bmerr

    bmerr
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    DHK,

    bmerr here. I notice you hardly ever give any Scripture references with your statements concerning baptism. Why is that?

    Where is the verse that tells us that baptism is a work?

    Where is the verse that tells us that "...belief in the gospel is belief in the words of Christ that if you have faith in His promise to receive Him as Saviour, trusting in His Sacrificial work, then he will forgive your sin and grant unto you eternal life" [DHK]?

    The NT command to be baptized is a command with purpose and a promise.

    Acts 2:38 - Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remmision of sins (purpose), and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (promise).

    Now, if you would be so kind as to provide the requested Scripture references, I'm sure we'd all be most grateful.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  6. DHK

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    Baptism is a work. Look it up in a dictionary. You cannot define it as a work of God anywhere in the Bible, so who are you to question me on the same thing. It is not a work of God it is a work of man. Eph.2:8,9 makes that clear enough. Man does it, man receives it. Where and when did Jesus baptize you. Please provide details. Are you 2,000 years old??

    The Bible describes faith, but does not define it. Get yourself a dictionary.
    DHK
     
  7. billwald

    billwald
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    "Belief in a person is total trust in that individual."

    It isn't sufficient to have total trust in God?
     
  8. DHK

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    Absolutely. Especially if it is in the words of God, that is the Scripture, God's revelation of Himself to mankind. Nowhere in the Bible do we find faith connected to baptism. Belief or faith always has an object. I trust my wife. I trust my children (to a certain extent). I trust my pastor. I don't have faith or trust in baptism; that is just a ridiculous statement, for baptism is an inanimate object. It is like trusting a stone. It doesn't make sense. But I implicitly or totally trust the one and true living God that what he says in the Word of God is true and that he will never fail to keep His Word. Others may fail me; God never.
    DHK
     
  9. mman

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    You do err not knowing the scriptures.

    Col 2:12 - having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

    The bible says baptism is by faith and God is the one working.

    DHK says baptism is not of faith and it is man working.

    You said, "If a child doesn't take out the garbage what is the result. Does he now forfeit his right to be a part of the family, give up the family name, and his inheritance--all for the sake of disobeying one command."

    What does it take to become a child of God? According to Gal 3:26-27, for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. - ESV

    When we are in Christ, we are childern by faith because we have been baptized INTO Christ.

    For a child to be part of my family, they have to be born into my family or adopted. In Christ is where the childern are. How does one get into Christ? You can search your bible from cover to cover and you will find the only way for one to get into Christ is for one to be baptized into Christ.

    Why in this world would anyone need a dictionary to define faith when we have a whole chapter that provides examples of faith. Without the type of faith found in Heb 11, it is IMPOSSIBLE (Heb 11:6) to please God.

    Now lets see, Heb 11:30, "By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days."

    Lets take your approach and plug in the dictionary definition of faith. By belief or trust, the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.

    Does that fit? Did their actions play any part of the walls falling down?

    Did their actions obliglate God to cause the walls to fall? If so, we could perform those same actions today and God would be obligated to make walls fall down. No, they did not earn it or obligate God to make the walls fall. The walls fell, not of works, but because of faith. God gave them instructions and they obeyed. When they obeyed, it could be said, "By faith the walls of Jericho fell".

    God has given us instructions to believe, repent, confess and baptized for the remission of sins or to be saved (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Mark 16:16, etc.)

    We obey those instructions by faith. Gal 3:26-27 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
     
  10. mman

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    Absolutely. Especially if it is in the words of God, that is the Scripture, God's revelation of Himself to mankind. Nowhere in the Bible do we find faith connected to baptism. Belief or faith always has an object. I trust my wife. I trust my children (to a certain extent). I trust my pastor. I don't have faith or trust in baptism; that is just a ridiculous statement, for baptism is an inanimate object. It is like trusting a stone. It doesn't make sense. But I implicitly or totally trust the one and true living God that what he says in the Word of God is true and that he will never fail to keep His Word. Others may fail me; God never.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]Baptism is connected to faith. The source of faith is God's word. Without God's word, there wouldn't be the english word baptism.

    You are familiar with Gal 3:26-27, "26for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

    You are also familiar with Col 2:12, "having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead."

    Raised with Him through faith. Raised from what? The watery grave of baptism. How, through faith. Why would anyone be baptized? Faith, a total belief in what God said, even when "It doesn't make sense". What is the source of faith? God's word.

    I think that if you were Naaman, you would have died in your leprosy. It didn't make sense to him either. He couldn't see a connection in the water of a dirty river and the curing of his leprosy. He was angry at this instruction. He had something else in mind. He thought that by calling on the name of the Lord would be enough to cure him.

    Who cured Naaman? God. When? When he believed and was on his way to the water? No. Did Naaman dip in the water as a symbol to show that his leprosy was already cured? No. Naaman was only cured when he obeyed. Did his obedience earn his cure? No, if that were the case, any leper, even today, could dip 7 times in the Jordan river and be cured. No, he did not earn his cure with work, he believed God and obeyed. Just as certainly as it can be said that the walls of Jericho fell by faith, it could be said that by faith, Naaman was cured of his leprosy.
     
  11. DHK

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    Show me one verse of Scripture, just one, without going into a COC spin that demonstrates that baptism is a work of God and not of man.
    DHK
     
  12. mman

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    Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

    Ok, now your turn. Show me one passage where baptism is ever called a work of man. Baptism is never classified as a meritorious work but when it is tied to something it is tied to faith.
     
  13. DHK

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    Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

    Ok, now your turn. Show me one passage where baptism is ever called a work of man. Baptism is never classified as a meritorious work but when it is tied to something it is tied to faith.
    </font>[/QUOTE]That was your COC spin.
    The meaning of the verse.
    Baptism is symbolic, always has been symbolic; never was part of salvation. That is a given. It takes part after salvation and pictures that which took place at conversion. What took place at conversion?
    Our old live was buried. We were raised in newness life with Jesus Christ.

    Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    Salvation is through faith and faith alone in the operation of God (his sacrifice on the cross) who has raised Christ from the dead. Baptism pictures our faith in that sacrifice. We bury our old life of sin, and are raised again in newness of life because of our faith in what he has done for us.

    Baptism itself is a work of man. Man does it. Man receives.

    For by grace are ye saved through faith and not of works Baptism is a work.
    DHK
     
  14. prophecynut

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    Col. 2:12

    The important word to understand is "through."

    12 "having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him

    through

    your faith in the power of God,...."

    In this pasage "through" means "by reason of or in consequence of"

    Example: to run away through fear
    Baptism: be baptised through faith

    Because of fear a person runs away.
    Because of faith a person is baptized.

    The running away is dependent on fear prior to running away. Baptism is dependent on faith prior to baptism. Involved are two separate actions that cannot be combined as one, faith in Christ must precede baptism. Good works which baptism is, comes through faith in Chirst.
     
  15. mman

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    Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

    Ok, now your turn. Show me one passage where baptism is ever called a work of man. Baptism is never classified as a meritorious work but when it is tied to something it is tied to faith.
    </font>[/QUOTE]That was your COC spin.
    The meaning of the verse.
    Baptism is symbolic, always has been symbolic; never was part of salvation. That is a given. It takes part after salvation and pictures that which took place at conversion. What took place at conversion?
    Our old live was buried. We were raised in newness life with Jesus Christ.

    Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    Salvation is through faith and faith alone in the operation of God (his sacrifice on the cross) who has raised Christ from the dead. Baptism pictures our faith in that sacrifice. We bury our old life of sin, and are raised again in newness of life because of our faith in what he has done for us.

    Baptism itself is a work of man. Man does it. Man receives.

    For by grace are ye saved through faith and not of works Baptism is a work.
    DHK
    </font>[/QUOTE]Oh, I get it. I provide a verse with no commentary, you read it and think it has a COC spin. It doesn't mean what it says, it means this...

    You only have baseless claims that baptism is a work. I have scripture to show it part of faith.

    Jesus said, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. If baptism were only symbolic, he should have said, "He that believeth is saved and shall be baptized to symolize it."

    You say baptism is never part of salvation.
    Jesus said, He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. - Mark 16:16

    Did he mean what he said, or did he mean something else?
     
  16. prophecynut

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    Mark 16:16

    "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved"

    This is the same command given by John the Baptist in "the baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" (1:4). This command requires faith and the works of baptism to obtain forgiveness of sins. At this point in time believers were still under the law which required faith and works to please God.

    Now during the Church Age salvation is by faith alone in Chirst free from any conditions such as baptism. Through faith in Christ we comply with the two ordinances commanded by Christ, water baptism and the Lord's Supper. Both of these ordinances are dependent on faith prior to our desire to please Him.
     
  17. DHK

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    You gave Scripture trying to prove your point. I explained that your Scripture (Col.2:12) ahs nothing to do with baptism being an act of faith whatsoever. You have failed in demonstrating it to be so. I don't have to demonstrate it from the Bible for the simple reason that not every word in the Bible is given a definition. Get yourself a dictionary where words are defined. The Bible is not a dictionary. Baptism is defined as a work. Salvation is not of works. You believe in heresy. It is that simple.
    You might take into consideration that every time faith is used it is used in connection with a promise. It is never used in connection with a command. Baptism is a command without any promise attached to it. There is no faith involved.
    DHK
     
  18. bmerr

    bmerr
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    To all,

    bmer here. We would all agree that there are different ways to say the same thing. DHK has pointed out in an earlier post that what is commonly termed "baptism" is simply immersion in water. Believe it or not, he and I actually agree on this. :eek:

    Recently, however, DHK made this statement:

    Many on these boards would agree with him, I'm sure. In fact, I used to believe this myself.

    But what does the Bible say about it?

    I'm sure we're all familiar with Acts 2:38, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost."

    Now we can argue back and forth about conversion and "faith only", etc, etc, ad nauseum. But if the Holy Spirit inspired a man to restate this command using different words, perhaps that would clear up the issue, at least for the honest ones among us.

    If we skip from Acts 2:38 to Acts 3:19 (page 160 in my Bible), we find Peter extending the gospel invitation for the second recorded time, but this time he words it a bit differently. Remember, same invitation, slightly different words.

    "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord"

    Compare that to Acts 2:38:

    "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the Holy Ghost."

    Basically we have so far, the partial command to repent, and the end result of the complete command.

    The main difference in the words Peter used is between "be baptized...in the name of Jesus Christ", and "be converted".

    Since all other aspects of the two invitations are essentially the same, and Peter was giving the same invitation, my conclusion is that to "be baptized...in the name of Jesus Christ" is the same thing as to "be converted".

    So, once again, the Bible shows DHK to be in error, as the Scriptures show that conversion takes place at baptism, while DHK maintains that, "Baptism...takes part after salvation and pictures that which took place at conversion.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     
  19. DHK

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    Bmerr,
    You are like the Oneness Pentecostals who require not only baptism but speaking in tongues to be saved. I challenged them: Take out the Book of Acts (a book of history, not of doctrine--a transitional book), and try to prove your case from the epistles, which are books of doctrine. For example, the Book of Romans--Its great theme is soteriology. It discusses thoroughly every aspect of salvation. If the plan of salvation could be found anywhere it should be found in the Book of Romans. Can you do that. Can you take the rest of the New Testament and prove your doctrine to be true. Prove it to be true out of the doctrinal books of the Bible, not the historical books of the Bible. I believe if you try and do that you will see that your doctrine, will fail miserably.
    DHK
     
  20. bmerr

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    billwald,

    bmerr here. Would you say that to have "total trust" in someone would include the concept of doing what they say?

    Imagine little Jimmy, trapped in the second story window of his home, which is on fire. Jimmy's dad, a fireman positions himself under the window, and asks Jimmy, "Do you trust me, son?"

    Jimmy says "Yes", and dad says, "I want you to jump down into my arms. I'll catch you, I promise." But Jimmy refuses. He can't understand why his dad can't just put the fire out and come up and get him, after all, he's a fireman.

    The fire gets closer and closer to little Jimmy, but he refuses to jump so his father can catch him. Eventually, Jimmy is overcome by the flames, and his father can only watch in horror as his little boy dies.

    Little Jimmy said he trusted his dad, but he wouldn't do what dad said he must do. Is that really "total trust"?

    In like manner, God has commanded baptism for the remission of sins under the New Testament. Sadly, God watches people die every day who claimed to trust in Him, but wouldn't obey this simple command.

    Why don't they obey? It doesn't make sense to them. After all, God should be able to save them without their having to do anything at all but just believe that He can. He's God, after all, isn't He?

    But God does not make exceptions to the rules of the New Testament in His Son's precious blood. God's grace is clear, His commands are unchangeable. They don't always make sense, but then that's the picture of Biblical faith. Doing what God says, even when we don't understand why.

    In Christ,

    bmerr
     

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