Believe Christ’s gospel, or your churches doctrine? Where to start.

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by ituttut, Jul 19, 2004.

  1. ituttut

    ituttut
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    Where should we today begin our study of His Word? People have to start somewhere, and they usually start (I did) “hodge podge”. Mine was in the Baptist Sunday school Quarterlies, jumping from the Old Testament to the New Testament, a continual mixing of God’s pure grace found in the Christian message, then back to salvation that includes a work. It all meshes pretty well, until we began finding the contradictions in the method of unsound systematic theology of man. We bring Israelology over into this place we are now in where there is no difference between Jew and Gentile. Peter tells us that NOW the Jew can be saved like we Gentile’s, not the other way around. We are to steer clear of their ordinances, and their religion. It was theirs, and it will be again. Today we are all His by the Grace of God through faith when we believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. This was never before heard of, and will never be again. Who had ever heard of the Body of Christ, and it containing we dogs along with His own?

    Or then we start at the beginning, going to the end, which gives us a string that all things are as they were from the beginning, and the message has always been the same.

    Then we have the devotionals’ with one day in King David, then the next perhaps to the Book of Acts for Pentecost, and then next Ephesians and the Body of Christ. One day we learn a truth, and then the next another truth, then another truth. They are all true, but today only one of the truths pertain to us.

    It is only when we notice that our God is a God of division that this mixing is not what He wishes for us today. We find this, division’s, in the very first verse of the first chapter of His Word. Then in Genesis 1:3 He shows another division. He then keeps reminding us of this all throughout the Bible. He shows us where He starts, then on to the beginning to the Old Testament … then on to something else as He brings us ever closer to Him ….. then to the “first great commission” given by Jesus in the Old Testament.

    Then in the beginning of the New Testament, Jesus Christ gives His “second great commission”. Then comes time to lay aside the “second great commission”. Jesus tells us in a parable that this possibility could happen, as Israel may not accept Messiah within the “dispensation” of time that He set. The kingdom that was to come did not come as Israel was chopped-off, and the Power of the Holy Ghost was taken from His people, as the will of God became known.

    Today, within the mysteries of God, we are in His secret time. This is the time of The Body of Christ Church. This starting time for this Christian time began on Damascus Road, where Christ separated Him an heavenly Apostle, Saul, especially sent to the Gentile’s, and also the house of Israel, This secret time will end with the Rapture. Even with the help of the Holy Ghost, the earthly Apostles, who were designated by Jesus Christ to present the “kingdom gospel” (only the Jew was commissioned to give this gospel), were unable to even get beyond Jerusalem. This mission was to the Jew’s (All Israel) first, and then make proselytes of the heathen Gentile’s. It is God’s people that agreed to a covenant with their God, that the promises are made. The earth is their inheritance. The Gentile was, and will just be along for the ride, and in subjection to the Jew, unless they are in the Body of Christ. The Gentile can then be in the Temple. Outside of Christ Jesus, no Gentile may enter. I believe His Word shows us today that we are not to endeavor to bring any Jewish ordinances contained in the law into our salvation, or worship.

    But we find as we study the gospel of Paul, which is the dispensational gospel that Christ gave Paul (Ephesians 3:2 and on), that God today is giving Jesus Christ His inheritance, His Church (Ephesians 1:8). Today God is reconciling the whole world unto himself by His Grace through faith (II Corinthians 5:17-21). The blood stained free gift is offered to us, without trying to bring Israelology into His Grace today. Today there is neither Jew nor Gentile. We are not to know the man Jesus that walked the earth (II Corinthians 5:`16-18). It is by the Spirit that we know Him, in the heavenlies where we will be with Him. We will not be down here when His kingdom comes. That is the prayer for those in the tribulation.

    I believe the best place to start is in Matthew, where we can see the “kingdom of heaven” and the “kingdom of God.” We are familiar with this kingdom talk, as most wish to evidently go directly into the kingdom, as this is Jesus’ message while on the earth. These messages were for and to His own, His sheep, His people, and to the proselytes.

    Then next to Acts, where the kingdom of heaven is also presented. Then we see Peter and the Pentecostal church was not going to the Gentile, as they were not to approach them. Gentiles could listen to them, but the Jew never preached their gospel directly to the Gentile. They in this manner were following and doing just as did Jesus. While Jesus was on the earth, Jesus undeniable lets us know that He did not come for any other but just His own people, those of Israel by way of the 12 Tribes. We then come to Saul’s encounter with Christ from heaven, with a heavenly message. As we move through Acts we can see the transition being made from the circumcision and baptism of hands, to these function being done without hands, in the Spirit and by the Holy Spirit of God. This is something New. The Old has passed away, and the New is here. The old cloth gives way to the new. The old bottle that was empted, cannot contain the new wine.

    Then we can see the Body of Christ as we get into Romans. When Paul arrives in Rome God again separates Paul, just as He did on the Road to Damascus. He takes Him out circulation, where he has His full attention. Paul is spent. Called a heretic, heckled, chained, rejected, ignored, with so many in Asia moving toward the Judaizers, beaten, shipwrecked 4 times, whipped, and brought back to life.

    Paul did just as Moses. He got too big for His britches. Moses struck the rock, disobeying the Word of God. Paul went back to Jerusalem, disobeying the Word of God. But God from heaven gave these two men what was necessary as He dispensed salvation as He will. God gave Moses his law (it was Moses’ law), and God gave Paul his gospel (it is Paul’s gospel). We find the Body of Christ Church in the writings of Paul, with John and Peter in their Epistle’s, showing they now understand the Body also.

    Christian faith, ituttut
     
  2. Ben W

    Ben W
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    Hello ituttut,

    I would say the Gospel of John is a great start for a new Christian for to me it seems to speak about the nature of Christ and His relationship to God the Father.

    I often wonder how people fare that read the Bible just by picking it up for the first time and starting at Genesis, I think that the Gideons give out a guide on where to start in case people get into that situation?
     
  3. ituttut

    ituttut
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    Hi Ben W,

    Yes, I agree with you as far as those just beginning to study His Word, and coming to Jesus Christ for salvation. I believe John’s gospel gives us the milk to start us on our way, of Once Saved Always Saved – “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Another point we should also notice is that in Acts the earthly Apostles of Jesus were to go to the Jew, and Paul and Barnabas to the Gentile. But since we now know that the idol worshiping Jews had become just as the heathen, there is no difference. So today the Christian has to make up His mind if we can take all that the earthly Apostles spoke to heart, as they said they would only go to the Jew in the Pentecostal church.

    But after this the Christian runs into trouble. The Christian must make a determination. Do I remain in this “state” or do I wish to “grow”. I believe Oh so many will remain at the starting gate. The problem all run into, and many never solve is John 3:16 and Acts 2:38. These two verses are diametrically opposed. One says you must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins (Baptist’s don’t believe this), and the other says all that is needed is to believe in Him (Baptist’s believe this).

    But as a Baptist, believing both of these to be true, I find not many agree with me. We are to believe the Whole Word of God. But those that disagree, cannot explain why. How can I believe both to be true? Because one was not spoken to me, and one was.

    After being saved, to find why both are true, but only one applies to us, we must correctly divide His Word. I don’t believe one can do this unless we understand Paul’s gospel from Christ Jesus. We can do this when we understand the Gospels, Acts, and the Epistles of Paul. The Holy Ghost made know to the earthly Apostles of Jesus the understanding of the Old Testament – ”And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. 45. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,” Luke 24:44-45. This understanding of salvation, for the Jew, and then to the Gentile is preached by Peter in Acts 2:38, just as Jesus Christ had commissioned Him and the other Apostles to do.

    Jesus Christ did not inform them of the “secret” that God had from the beginning. He had told them previously however in a parable that they (Israel) would be cut-off after a certain period of time if they did not accept their Messiah. Israel did not respond, so Christ Jesus from heaven gave to Paul the understanding of His Body. Christ Jesus commissioned Himself another Apostle. That is what we find in John 3:16. Where did John get that information? John didn’t preach this, nor did Peter in Acts 2. He got it from Paul. To understand our salvation and how God is today dispensing His Grace today, we can only find it in one place in God’s Word. That is in the writings of Paul, and we then see that John and Peter (they wrote their books after Paul’s) agree with Paul. Peter tells us it is a good idea that we study Paul, and believe His wisdom in II Peter 3:15.

    John tells us in easy to understand language how to enter into Christ. Peter then sends us to Paul, as that is where he, John and all the world will find the wisdom of Christ. We cannot understand the Body of Christ by studying the Old Testament. But we must understand the Old Testament so that we may understand and gain the wisdom of Christ.

    Christian Faith, ituttut
     
  4. Ben W

    Ben W
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    This is a situation that was faced by the Anabaptist Church. They were labelled "Anabaptists" meaning Rebaptisers which was not an accurate term. The Anabaptists believe Baptism can only be valid if it comes after Repentance.

    It seems to me that we throw forgiveness around a little to easily at times, Repentance is a neccessary step of the process.
     
  5. superdave

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    True confession involves repentance.

    Paul pretty cleary indicates in many places that the cycle of sinning and confession over and over again for the same things is not the purpose of confession and forgiveness. To give you the Superdave dynamic equivilent "So should we continue to sin so that we will continue to recieve grace? Let it not be so!"

    True confession includes turning from the sin toward Christ-likeness.
     
  6. Brod Mon

    Brod Mon
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    "The problem all run into, and many never solve is John 3:16 and Acts 2:38. These two verses are diametrically opposed. One says you must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins (Baptist’s don’t believe this), and the other says all that is needed is to believe in Him (Baptist’s believe this)."

    How could you say that these two verses are opposed? That's only your interpretation but the two do not oppose each other and Baptists believe the two. When Peter said Repent and be baptized does not mean you must repent & baptized to be saved because during repentance salvation takes place. Repentance means change of mind or being sorry of one thing you did or believed. In John 3:15~18 you read that a person is saved if he belived on Jesus Christ(mean to trust Him that He only can save us & nothing else) and a person that do not believe is condemned already to go to hell. Therefore if not believing makes one go to hell then believing(to Christ) makes one go to heaven. This is repentance that saved us. Repenting from believing to many other ways(not Jesus) to believing to Jesus that He alone can save us because He already paid for it on the cross. That's why when peter said Repent he simply said to repent from not believing to believing to Him which makes one saved then be baptized as what Jesus commanded to everyone who believed(Matt.28:19~20). That's why Acts 2:41 says "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized". Who were baptized? they that gladly received his words. they that believed in his words. they that repented from believing to others ways to be saved to believing that Jesus alone can saved. that's make them saved and they were BAPTIZED. Saved then Baptized. Where is the opposition? Nothing!!!
     
  7. gb93433

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    Exegesis is always past tense. Therefore it is imperative that one understand the historical context of the passage first. The historical context of Acts 2:38 is that the early church did not seperate baptism from belief as we do. In a Jewish culture they did not seperate things from one another as we do with a Greek philosophy. Baptism was the proof of their belief. When one was baptized it meant they were announcing Jesus as their Lord and in effect renouncing the emperor as their Lord. Because of this the emperor could have had them executed. Faith is always accompanied by action. In that society faith was accompanied by baptism.
     
  8. rufus

    rufus
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    Excellent advice.

    Then read I John for Security issues!
     
  9. ituttut

    ituttut
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    Amen! When we come to Him all our sins are forgiven and our one spiritual baptism into salvation turns us. Repentance is in Him, and we find it when we come to the light.
     
  10. ituttut

    ituttut
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    Hello Brod Mon

    ituttut:"The problem all run into, and many never solve is John 3:16 and Acts 2:38. These two verses are diametrically opposed. One says you must repent and be baptized for the remission of sins (Baptist’s don’t believe this), and the other says all that is needed is to believe in Him (Baptist’s believe this)."

    Brod Mon: How could you say that these two verses are opposed? That's only your interpretation but the two do not oppose each other and Baptists believe the two.

    ituttut: This is the writing of the Holy Spirit, and is His interpretation, not mine. He does the interpreting, and our God of division requires us to do the same. We are to correctly divided His Word.

    Brod Mon: When Peter said Repent and be baptized does not mean you must repent & baptized to be saved because during repentance salvation takes place.
    Repentance means change of mind or being sorry of one thing you did or believed.


    ituttut: Fully agree with repentance as put forth by you and the Word. But a physical act was to go along with repentance at that time. Peter of the circumcision preached and taught a physical act of water baptism was necessary for the remission of sins. John 3:16 does not teach this

    Brod Mon: In John 3:15~18 you read that a person is saved if he belived on Jesus Christ(mean to trust Him that He only can save us & nothing else) and a person that do not believe is condemned already to go to hell.

    Then why are you arguing. I never said our turning or our being water baptized saved us. But that is what you imply, from your Acts 2:38 stance. Read your right above, and you agree with me. John doesn’t mention either repentance or water baptism. Don’t you see that you are agreeing with me? Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. John taught just as did Peter in Acts 2:38, but afterwards John wrote this book, and his others, well after the death of Paul, he no longer presented salvation under the law and ordinances for the Jew. You will not find in any writing by John the mention of repentance or water baptism. He preaches the same as Paul and Peter after Damascus Road and Peter’s eye opening encounter with Cornelius, the first Gentile to be saved. And that was done without the command of repent and be baptized for the remission of sins. God stopped Peter in mid-sentence. God would not allow Peter to command the Gentile to repent and be baptized to receive the Power of the Holy Ghost - Acts 10:43-44. This is now an Act of God, and not of man. But this could not happen until Christ spoke face to face to Paul before in Acts 9.

    Brod Mon: Therefore if not believing makes one go to hell then believing(to Christ) makes one go to heaven. This is repentance that saved us. Repenting from believing to many other ways(not Jesus) to believing to Jesus that He alone can save us because He already paid for it on the cross. That's why when peter said Repent he simply said to repent from not believing to believing to Him which makes one saved then be baptized as what Jesus commanded to everyone who believed(Matt.28:19~20). That's why Acts 2:41 says "Then they that gladly received his word were baptized". Who were baptized? they that gladly received his words. they that believed in his words. they that repented from believing to others ways to be saved to believing that Jesus alone can saved. that's make them saved and they were BAPTIZED. Saved then Baptized. Where is the opposition? Nothing!!!

    ituttut: Yes you are right that “they gladly received his words, they that believed in his words. they that repented from believing to others ways to be saved ……………” This is what God told them to do at that time and they did it. That was the Pentecostal church with the Power of the Holy Ghost indwelled in the Apostles that could move mountains as they wished. That was then. This is now. Is this how we are saved today? Can we on demand move mountains, heal the sick, raise the dead, and not become sick? This is Pentecostal speak and not Baptist. This is how it is going to be in the kingdom. This is a preview and the kingdom that was at hand. But Israel did not receive Messiah in the prescribed time set by Christ in a parable.

    John tells you the same thing as Paul. There were three gospels during the time of the Apostles. One to go to the Jew only, then one to everybody of repent and be baptized for the remission of sins, and then the gospel of Paul given to him by Christ Jesus from heaven of believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved. Paul then tells us how we are saved in his Epistles. Repentance and baptism are still there, but they are found in Christ Jesus alive up there, and not dead down here. He arose.

    Faith is what saves us. Through faith we are saved by the Grace of God that came to us through Jesus Christ. It is the Holy Spirit that places us there. We are made righteous in Him. Why? Because of the work that He did for us. When we come to Him that is where we find repentance, where we are turned and baptized into His death now being dead to the law. We are now in the Body of Christ. We are sealed in with no way out. We will also arise.
     
  11. ituttut

    ituttut
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