Believe v. Faith

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by 2 Timothy2:1-4, Aug 19, 2007.

  1. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    Should we be convinced that belief and faith are not the same thing with regards to salvation?

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith......


    Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
     
  2. Accountable

    Accountable
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    You have a slight but drastic shift in terminology from you previous blog in the thread concerning ME.

    There you stated :
    There is a huge difference in having faith and faithfulness.
    There is a need to know on which end of the spectrum you now stand before we can give true reply. If you made a typo, or brainfreeze, join the crowd! No problem, I just need to know so all is clarified before an answer can be submitted.
    God Bless.
     
  3. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    No mistake. Faith is expressed in faithfuness. Where there is no faithfulness there is no faith. It is exactly like love. You cannot love someone and not express it. Love never exists until it is expressed. Faith never exists until it is expressed.
     
  4. Accountable

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    So you believe that one must be faithful to be saved?
    Sorry for not noticing but I didn't remember you being Calvinist. Being midnight here, I will have to take this up tomorrow night! Good night!
     
  5. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    Do not put words in my mouth. What I said and what you just said are not the same. As far as being calvinist I do not follow the teaching of a man. Only Christ. I am in Christ not in a man, Calvin or otherwise. However I am very much in line with much of the reformed type theology.
     
    #5 2 Timothy2:1-4, Aug 19, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 19, 2007
  6. av1611jim

    av1611jim
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    Be very careful where you are treading brother. Ever hear of love unrequited? It happens. So does faith without faithfulness. Many a christian has been saved by faith, yet for whatever reason has lapsed into unfaithfulness.

    faithfulness
    FA'ITHFULNESS, n.
    1. Fidelity; loyalty; firm adherence to allegiance and duty; as the faithfulness of a subject.
    2. Truth; veracity; as the faithfulness of God.
    3. Strict adherence to injunctions, and to the duties of a station; as the faithfulness of servants or ministers.
    4. Strict performance of promises, vows or covenants; constancy in affection; as the faithfulness of a husband or wife.

    Faithfulness is works oriented.

    faith
    FAITH, n. L. fides, fido, to trust; Gr. to persuade, to draw towards any thing, to conciliate; to believe, to obey. In the Greek Lexicon of Hederic it is said, the primitive signification of the verb is to bind and draw or lead, as signifies a rope or cable. But this remark is a little incorrect. The sense of the verb, from which that of rope and binding is derived, is to strain, to draw, and thus to bind or make fast. A rope or cable is that which makes fast. Heb.
    1. Belief; the assent of the mind to the truth of what is declared by another, resting on his authority and veracity, without other evidence; the judgment that what another states or testifies is the truth. I have strong faith or no faith in the testimony of a witness, or in what a historian narrates.
    2. The assent of the mind to the truth of a proposition advanced by another; belief, or probable evidence of any kind.
    3. In theology, the assent of the mind or understanding to the truth of what God has revealed. Simple belief of the scriptures, of the being and perfections of God, and of the existence, character and doctrines of Christ, founded on the testimony of the sacred writers, is called historical or speculative faith; a faith little distinguished from the belief of the existence and achievements of Alexander or of Cesar.
    4. Evangelical, justifying, or saving faith, is the assent of the mind to the truth of divine revelation, on the authority of God's testimony, accompanied with a cordial assent of the will or approbation of the heart; an entire confidence or trust in God's character and declarations, and in the character and doctrines of Christ, with an unreserved surrender of the will to his guidance, and dependence on his merits for salvation. In other words, that firm belief of God's testimony, and of the truth of the gospel, which influences the will, and leads to an entire reliance on Christ for salvation.
    Being justified by faith. Rom. 5.
    Without faith it is impossible to please God. Heb. 11.
    For we walk by faith, and not by sight. 2Cor. 5.
    With the heart man believeth to righteousness. Rom. 10.
    The faith of the gospel is that emotion of the mind, which is called trust or confidence, exercised towards the moral character of God, and particularly of the Savior.
    Faith is an affectionate practical confidence in the testimony of God.
    Faith is an affectionate practical confidence in the testimony of God.
    Faith is a firm, cordial belief in the veracity of God, in all the declarations of his word; or a full and affectionate confidence in the certainty of those things which God has declared, and because he has declared them.
    5. The object of belief; a doctrine or system of doctrines believed; a system of revealed truths received by christians.
    They heard only, that he who persecuted us in times past, now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed. Gal. 1.
    6. The promises of God, or his truth and faithfulness.
    shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? Rom. 3.
    7. An open profession of gospel truth.
    Your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world. Rom. 1.
    8. A persuasion or belief of the lawfulness of things indifferent.
    Hast thou faith? Have it to thyself before God. Rom 14.

    Faith is "works-less".

    Be very careful mixing the two doctrines. Ya git inta trubel!
     
  7. av1611jim

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    And why not? Even the devils believe and tremble. Yet it is never said of them that they have faith.
     
  8. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    I have no need to be careful in this case as I am quite on track. The word Pistis for faith is used 228 times in the NT. In Titus 2:10 it is translated fidelity. The greek lexicon defines it this way:

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Strong's Number: 4102[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Browse Lexicon[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Original Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Word Origin[/FONT]pivsti▀╝/FONT>[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]from (3982)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transliterated Word[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]TDNT Entry[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Pistis[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]6:174,849[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Phonetic Spelling[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Parts of Speech[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]pis'-tis [​IMG] [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Noun Feminine [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] Definition[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]
    1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
      1. relating to God
        1. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
      2. relating to Christ
        1. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
      3. the religious beliefs of Christians
      4. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
    2. fidelity, faithfulness
      1. the character of one who can be relied on
    [/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica] King James Word Usage - Total: 244[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]faith 239, assurance 1, believe + (1537)&version=kjv 1, belief 1, them that believe 1, fidelity 1[/FONT]

    Faith always produces an action based on the object the faith is applied. Jesus said a good tree must always produce good fruit. It cannot produce bad fruit. Abiding in Christ is based on fruit.


     
  9. npetreley

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    I'd only add "True" (True faith). It's easy to profess faith but not really have it. That's why James said even the demons "believe" but don't have faith. The ME addicts want to pretend that means you can be saved if you believe but not have faith, but if they were capable of rational thought, they'd see they're declaring all demons to be "eternally spiritually saved", since they believe.
     
  10. Mr.M

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    Christ did not DIE for those devils (the offer of salvation came in eternity past in a means and method not described in the Bible but referenced in Hebrews), hence even believing does not save them. Faith and belief used in the context of salvation are synonymous.
     
  11. npetreley

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    Excellent point.
     
  12. TCGreek

    TCGreek
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    Two thumps, way up!!
     
  13. skypair

    skypair
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    You make a good, honest, and biblical distinction here, 2Tim!

    To believe, according to scripture, is to HOPE because it is without proof. Look at any future event which the believer expects (we have the "blessed HOPE and glorious appearing" of Christ, Titus 2:13) and see that he believes it but has no proof except scriptural promises that it will happen. That is how we "enter into" salvation as well.

    Faith, per Heb 11:1, speaks of PROOF and EVIDENCE. Proof and evidence, especially HS indwelling, are what we receive so that we can have FAITH. Hence, faith and regeneration are directly related and near simultaneous. We know this to be true because one of the "gifts of the Spirit" is, in fact, faith, 1Cor 12:9.

    Even Strong's appears to agree: 1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith [belief with proof] and joined with it [belief]

    skypair
     
    #13 skypair, Aug 20, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 20, 2007
  14. 2 Timothy2:1-4

    2 Timothy2:1-4
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    I made no distinction. Your definitions have been hand picked it appears. What we need is the greek word in the lexicon and the context it was used. let me help you out. Most commonly used in the NT is the greek word Pistis. It is translated as seen as below.

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]King James Word Usage - Total: 244[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]faith 239, assurance 1, believe + (1537)&version=kjv 1, belief 1, them that believe 1, fidelity 1[/FONT]

    Some times it is tranlsated as believe. Other times it is tranlsated a faith. More interesting it is translated in Titus as fidelity.

    In Romans4:5 it is used twice in the same verse. Once as believeth and the other as faith.

    [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Ro 4:5[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. [/FONT]


    The greek word Pistos is translated in similar fashion.

    [FONT=Arial, Helvetica]King James Word Usage - Total: not tr 1[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica]faithful 53, believe 6, believing 2, true 2, faithfully 1, believer 1, sure 1[/FONT]


     
  15. webdog

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    In places, believe is used interchangeably with faith. Here it is not.
     
  16. webdog

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    I liken the difference between belief and faith as this.

    As a child, I would stand on the edge of the pool. My father would tell me to jump, and he would catch me. I knew my father possessed the physical ability to catch me (belief). At this point a decision to jump or not exists. That is faith.
     
    #16 webdog, Aug 20, 2007
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  17. skypair

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    Sorry, 2Tim ---- I been "through the 'it's all Greek to me' drill." :laugh: My point is that same word or not, there is another meaning spoken of in context. And that meaning, in many cases, is "hope," not "confirmed or proven belief" which is commonly called "faith."

    Why did Abraham have "faith?" Not because he believed what God said but because when he acted upon what God commanded, God fulfilled His promises. Every one of those saints in the Hebrews 11 "hall of fame" DID something whereby God then proved to be "as good as His word."

    skypair
     
  18. skypair

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    Yeah --- what web said. :godisgood:

    skypair
     

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