Berean Proof the Nicene Creed of 381 A.D. Challenge

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hark, Feb 23, 2016.

  1. Hark

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    Acts 17:10 And the brethren immediately sent away Paul and Silas by night unto Berea: who coming thither went into the synagogue of the Jews.11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

    Here is a site giving scriptural references for the Nicene creed of 381 A.D.

    http://www.serfes.org/orthodox/holyscripturereferencestothecreed.htm

    Below is a line from the Nicene creed that is not really supported by scripture.


    "Who together with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, ( Matthew 3:16-17 ) "

    Matthew 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    That reference is only about the Father & the Holy Spirit testifying that Jesus is God at Jesus's water baptism by John the Baptist.

    That is far far far away from validating the "practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son". We can find a lot of verses about how the Holy Spirit is God, but where is the instruction to practice worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son? It's nowhere.

    And it is because God the Father told us how He wants us to come to Him in worship in honoring Him ( John 5:22-23 ) and that is by way of the Son ( John 14:6 ) Whom the Holy Spirit has been sent to lead us to testify of ( John 15:26-27 ) and to glorify ( John 16:13-14 ) even in worship ( Philippians 2:5-11 & John 13:31-32 ).

    Now if I missed a verse, feel free to correct that site for giving a wrong scriptural reference for the practice of worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son, because Matthew 3:16-17 is not it.

    Galatians 4:16
    Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?
     
    #1 Hark, Feb 23, 2016
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2016
  2. Hark

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    The scripture here says no worshiping the Holy Spirit. The moment you honor the Holy Spirit, you are no longer honoring the Father, because the Father's will is to honor the Son and that is the judgment given.

    John 5:22 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

    So why can't we honor and glorify the Holy Spirit in worship? Let's look at what the Holy Spirit has been sent to do.

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    Now how will the Holy Spirit do that except through us?

    John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

    Here is what the Holy Spirit WILL NOT do.

    John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.14 He shall glorify me:....

    If the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself, but to glorify the Son, how can the Holy Spirit do that? Through us again.

    So those led by the Spirit of God will be doing the same thing the Holy Spirit has been sent to do; to not speak of Himself in seeking His own glory but of the Son in seeking His glory; thereby leading believers to honor the Father by honoring the Son in worship.

    The moment a believer honors the Holy Spirit in worship, they are not being led by the scripture nor the Holy Spirit to do that, and they are no longer honoring the Father in worship when they do that either.

    It is a general assumption that because the Holy Spirit is God then He must be worshiped too, but scripture does not support that practice, and the scripture does explain why not as it does not honor the Father in worship when they do that.
     
  3. InTheLight

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    One of the main functions of the Holy Spirit is to point people to Jesus. The Holy Spirit defers attention from Himself and places it upon Christ. I agree with you that I don't see Biblical evidence of anyone worshiping the Holy Spirit (specifically) but surely when we worship the Father and the Son we are also worshiping the Holy Spirit, aren't we?
     
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  4. Hark

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    Thank you for replying.

    That is the question, isn't it?

    How can we worship the Holy Spirit if the Holy Spirit will not lead us to speak of Himself in seeking His own glory with the Father & the Son?
     
  5. Hark

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    Attempting to send a tag @Santha

    Okay. That worked that time.
     
  6. Hark

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    Trying again in sending out invitations to the thread. No pressure. Just hoping the Lord will lead more to share @Pastor_Bob @Rob_BW @kyredneck @Zaac @JonC δοῦλος @kfinks @JamesL .
    1. Feel free to find a correct verse supporting that line in the Nicene creed in the OP or...
    2. Feel free to see why we should not worship the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son in the post #2, and offer any reproof or confirmation for believer's discernment today in these latter days.
     
  7. Hark

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    More invitations to join the discussion @John of Japan @Iconoclast and @steaver

    1. Feel free to find a correct verse supporting that line in the Nicene creed in the OP or...
    2. Feel free to see why we should not worship the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son in the post #2, and offer any reproof or confirmation for believer's discernment today in these latter days.
    3. Feel free to invite a forum member that may help in this area too.
     
  8. kyredneck

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    OP seems to be putting it on par with blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

    When my heart has soared like a hawk from reading the scriptures or hearing a really good sermon I've believed that to be worshipping in Spirit and in truth.
     
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  9. Hark

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    1. Feel free to find a correct verse supporting that line in the Nicene creed in the OP or...
    2. Feel free to see why we should not worship the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son in the post #2, and offer any reproof or confirmation for believer's discernment today in these latter days.
    3. Feel free to invite a forum member that may help in this area too.
    Sending out more invitations @TCassidy @Squire Robertsson @DHK @Darrell C @Pastor James @Pastor Timothy @PastorMark @pastorsag @Salty @kyredneck @Revmitchell @Clint Kritzer @tyndale1946 @th1bill @church mouse guy @evangelist6589
     
  10. John of Japan

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    Since I've been invited I'll briefly comment so I can follow the thread, but I'm backing off from threads right now to get ready for a missions trip in a month. (I have to produce training material.)

    What is lacking in the thread is a definition of "worship." There are various words used in the NT of worship, some of which would fit our relationship to the Holy Spirit, and some of which would not. The most common word is the Greek word proskuneo, which means to literally bow down and worship physically. Obviously we do not worship the Holy Spirit in this way. The Greek word latreuo occurs 21 times, and means to worship in the sense of serving. We serve the Holy Spirit when we serve God.

    What the Bible does not teach is a "worship service," like we think of it today. That is not the NT purpose of the church. And the early church at the time of the Nicene creed thought of worship as serving God, but did not think of worship like we do: singing, praying, "worship teams," etc. (See the excellent book, Ancient Christian Worship, by Andrew McGowan.)
     
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  11. Zaac

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    Excellent thread!!! I grew up never worshiping the Holy Spirit. It was always one of those things that, at least for me, didn't need any explaining.

    The Holy Spirit is the indwelling of Christ's Spirit. It points us to worship of Christ who in turn leads us to worship the Father.

    It's crazy because even though they (The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit) are equal and all fully God, there still is something of a submissive hierarchy that examples the Biblical principle of God always having an order.

    Also, I believe another reason Scripture points to NOT worshiping the Spirit is because pagans and cultists were already worshiping spirits. And God is a God of order Who does not author confusion.

    It wasn't the Spirit sent to save us, but The Son as a man, Jesus Christ, who could relate to us and us to Him.

    We would never expect a spirit to be able to relate to the hurts and pains and challenges that we have as human beings. But the One Who came to save us could.

    So it would in turn, make no sense, to worship The One (Holy Spirit) Who points us to The Savior(Jesus) instead of worshiping The Savior.

    On another point about the Nicene Creed. It speaks of the Holy Spirit as being the "giver of life".

    What do you all think of that?
     
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  12. Revmitchell

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    Please do not tag me for these threads. I see them. If I wanted to participate I would have.
     
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  13. Hark

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    Since the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself, but of the Son in glorifying Him, then how can He do that unless through us?

    Scripture testifies that the Holy Spirit would never lead us to speak of Him to glorify Him, so how can we when we are not led by the Spirit of God & scripture to do that?

    That's "in spirit and in truth" which is for acknowledging in context for what Jesus was meaning that believer need not go to a place to worship God the Father because they can come to Him any where by way of the Son so that whenever believers honor the Son, they do so by honoring the Father in worship as led by the Spirit of God & scriptures to do.

    It is in that way, the worship the Father in spirit and in truth by way of the Son.

    Feel free to address the scripture in post #2 as to why we are not to worship the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son.

    BTW, thanks for participating in this thread, brother.

    The problem arises in the face of these movements of the "Spirit" where God is not the author of because of all the confusion, they address the Holy Spirit in worship and prayer and these signs comes which many believe it is not of Him at all.

    And so why would God allow that to happen unless we heed the commandment of His invitations to come to God the Father only by way of the Son in worship which is exactly what the indwelling Holy Spirit will lea us to do in keeping the spotlight on the Son whereas seducing spirits will not in coming with signs and lying wonders to lead many astray.
     
  14. kyredneck

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    Nah, really not interested enough to put the mental energy into analyzing the creed. Thanks for the invite though.
     
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  15. Hark

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    Amen!

    It depends on what Bible version you are using. Most will capitalize "spirit" in John 6:63 & 2 Corinthians 3:6 and so that becomes a problem.

    KJV has it in small "s" and a few other versions, but the only way to discern the correct translation is for Him to help others see that those two references is not talking about the Person of the Holy Spirit, and to note how it goes against scripture in John 6:30-35 as ALL modern Bible versions testify to Jesus as being the Giver of life.

    And Whom do you think the Holy Spirit will give that glory to? Not to Himself but to the Son ( John 16:13-14 ) as scripture will point to the Son to receive life ( John 5:39-40 )

    The Spirit IS life ( Romans 8:10 ) and that is why when Jesus baptizes us with the Holy Spirit, He is giving us life at the same time. The Holy Spirit & Jesus Christ & the Father being in us serves as 3 Witness that we have eternal life. Matthew 8:17 2 Corinthians 13:1 1 John 5:7

    So that is another miss in that Nicene creed of 381 A.D. that is not supported by the actual scripture in keeping in line with the truth with the rest of scripture.
     
  16. Hark

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    I shall hope the Lord will remind me not to ever tag you again.

    Thanks for the grace and kindness for not being offended, brother.
     
  17. Hark

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    You are welcome, brother.

    Thanks for sharing what you had posted in this thread.
     
  18. Hark

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    1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

    Those invited; if you need time to study and to prayerfully provide that answer, it is definitely okay not to reply right away.
     
  19. JonC

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    It depends on what you mean by "worship."

    If you are asking if the Holy Spirit is worshiped and glorified then yes, of course He is. God (Father, Son, and Spirit) are worshiped and glorified together. The Holy Spirit guides us in all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will Speak. He will glorify Christ. I hope that this sounds familiar as it is the same relationship that Jesus presents between Himself and the Father. The Holy Spirit is God just as are the Father and Son (I think this evident through the several triadic formulas throughout as well Scripture).

    If, however, you mean that we should not worship the Holy Spirit apart from the Trinity then I agree. We don't, for example, pray to the Holy Spirit (nor do we pray to Jesus). So in my opinion much depends on the context of the OP. If it means to deny the doctrine of the Trinity, then of course I disagree as it would be unorthodox.
     
  20. Hark

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    Thanks for participating.

    John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

    So if the Holy Spirit leads a believer to speak of Himself in seeking His own glory with the Father & the Son, would that mean there is unrighteousness in God?

    If we see what the Holy Spirit is sent for as a Witness in us to combine with our witness of the Son so that each individual witness of a believer with the Holy Spirit is true in according to His word, then by what spirit are we worshiping the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son?

    John 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

    So let's say you worship Jesus alone sometime. In those moments, coupled with the Holy Spirit's testimony of the Son, that worship of the Son is true in the eyes of God the Father in according to His words.

    I am concern that the broadening of the way in the worship place ( Matthew 7:13-14 ) by including the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father & the Son is responsible for many believers falling down in these movements of the "Spirit" ( Matthew 7:24-27 ). The "holy laughter" movement was ecumenical in nature ( Matthew 7:15-16 ) as it was no longer a Pentecostal/Charismatic circle phenomenon in 1994 as it was happening across the denomenations in Catholic and Protestant churches.

    How could it happen, unless they had broaden the way to believe that spirit coming into the worship place was the Holy Spirit.

    Since there are other spirits in the world with spirit worship and all, how else can God the father call them away from their spirits and prevent the from adding their worship of the spirit, unless all invitations in coming to God the Father in worship was only by way of the Son?

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    So as I understand what the Holy Spirit is sent to do and that is to point to the Son in worship; to lead the bride to keep going to the Bridegroom, it would prevent the seducing spirits from trying to come inbetween us and the Son with their signs and lying wonders to mislead us into chasing after them to receive after a sign which is what the spirits of the antichrist will do as antichrist as applied in scripture.. means "instead of the Son" rather than "against the Son".

    Psalm 27:8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, Lord, will I seek. 9 Hide not thy face far from me; put not thy servant away in anger: thou hast been my help; leave me not, neither forsake me, O God of my salvation.

    It does seem to stress the Father's will to honor the Father only by way of honoring the Son.

    A brother from India had shared with me that he used to think the Holy Spirit does not do dramatic manifestations any more like He did in the early church days, but then went on to explain why he had changed his mind. One day when his church was honoring the Holy Spirit on the calender day of Pentecost, he described a liquid nitrogen seeping through his skull and the next thing he knew, he was confessing an apology "against" his will TO the Holy Spirit for not believing that He still does those dramatic manifestations today.

    So 1 John 4:1-4 proves that spirit seeping through his skull when he already has the Holy Spirit in him, was not the real Holy Spirit, obviously. And I believe God would prefer a genuine apology and not a forced one against his will, which I would have to say, that spirit was hardly the Spirit of Christ with Jesus being meek and lowly in heart for us to find our soul rest in Him. All that spirit did, was take that brother's attention off of Jesus all the way now by having him relate to that spirit as if that is relating to the Holy Spirit,( he was apologizing to that spirit ) but it was not.

    So why would the devil answer when honoring the Holy Spirit in worship? All I can say is what scriptures says and that God the Father provided only one way to come to Him and that is by way of the Son so as to avoid the spirits of the antichrist.

    As it is, when spirits come with signs and lying wonders, leading others to call on the Holy Spirit to come again with those same signs of confusion, it happens, but the Holy Spirit was not the One answering. Here is why again.

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

    So those led by the Spirit of God will be doing one thing; to honor the Son in worship in glorifying Him, and thereby honoring and glorifying God the Father.

    John 13:31 Therefore, when he was gone out, Jesus said, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him. 32 If God be glorified in him, God shall also glorify him in himself, and shall straightway glorify him.

    It reads here that Paul wants believers to obey having this mind for worship of what Christ had in mind to do and has done which is why His name is above every other name to the glory of God the Father. So no other way to worship the Father by.

    Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. 12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    So I can see why to avoid these seducing spirits is to narrow the way back to the straight gate in worship ( Luke 13:24 )and may He keep our eyes on the Son because the Bridegroom will be coming soon. ( Luke 13:25-30 )
     

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