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Besides Lordship Haters and Calvinist Shills...?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JDale, Jul 25, 2008.

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  1. mparkerfd20

    mparkerfd20 Member

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    I agree with this, and many believers on both side of the theological debate may actually believe they are teaching biblical doctrine. Yet perusing through these boards it's hard to see the Christian love sometimes.

    I am thankful for those such as yourself that can keep a level head in the midst of such controversial topics.
     
    #61 mparkerfd20, Jul 28, 2008
  2. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    I am mainly ashamed at my own heart. It seems I have tendency to abandon meekness when discussing things in controversy. But this is one of the reasons why I won't abandon the threads altogether. It has really been helpful in my walk with Christ to be slandered and attacked for my beliefs, not because it makes me stronger in my beliefs, but it is a great exercise of my character to respond with patience, kindness, meekness, and love. I don't always do this. And I don't think a strong response always violates these virtues. But it certrainly can.

    But you hit the nail on the head my friend; Are we more concerned with appearing to be right than we are with the love of God and our opponent? If we are more concerning with appearing to be right then we truly are self-seeking.

    And where I have been selfishly motived, please be patient with me and fogive me.

    RB
     
    #62 ReformedBaptist, Jul 28, 2008
  3. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Guys, I agree with you that both sides can get ugly. There is no excuse for it, no matter what side we're on.

    I know that neither side likes to hear this, but I think both sides are right about many, many things. I think we all tend to put God in a box and say "this is the ONLY doctrine that can be right". The trouble is, that God just won't cooperate with that. :tongue3: I am guilty of this as well.

    If we all would just try to teach "in love" as the Bible says, we would all be better off and God would be pleased with us, even if we don't get it all right, all the time.
     
    #63 Amy.G, Jul 28, 2008
  4. mparkerfd20

    mparkerfd20 Member

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    Amen to that! :thumbs:
     
    #64 mparkerfd20, Jul 28, 2008
  5. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    I was listening to Moody Radio this afternoon and Pastor Don Cole was on with Chris Fabry (sp?) and he was talking about Christians getting angry and contentious with one another. Nah, we don't do that, do we? :laugh: He said that we have to "teach in love", but the first thing we must do is to love the person we're talking to. :eek:

    Now, I am ashamed to say it, but I have never thought of it that way. I know I should behave lovingly (although I fail miserably sometimes), but actually loving the person? Wow. That changes everything. If I love the person I'm talking to I probably won't call them a slimy hell bound Christian because they don't think like I do.

    Just wanted to share. :)
     
    #65 Amy.G, Jul 28, 2008
  6. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    How about slimy heaven-bound Christians? :laugh:
     
    #66 ReformedBaptist, Jul 28, 2008
  7. Bible-boy

    Bible-boy Active Member

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    An intellectually honest assessment of Baptist History reveals that there have always been Baptists in both the Calvinist and Free Will camps.

    The problem today comes when proponents of either system take their positions to an extreme (the hyper- end of the spectrum). When this happens it ends in absurdity and very flawed Theology (if not heresy).

    Personally, I am quite satisfied to sit in the biblical tension squarely between the two camps.
     
    #67 Bible-boy, Jul 28, 2008
  8. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Gotta learn to luv em, RB! :smilewinkgrin:
     
    #68 Amy.G, Jul 28, 2008
  9. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Goldie, your post was long so I left most of it out but just wanted to say I think it was good and I agree with it. :thumbs:
     
    #69 Marcia, Jul 28, 2008
  10. Marcia

    Marcia Active Member

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    Me, too! I agree (I had to add "I agree" because my post was too short! I didn't know it had to have at least 10 characters).
     
    #70 Marcia, Jul 28, 2008
  11. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    That is music to my ears, RB!!

    Listen. You know what "election" is? It is the "predestination" spoken of in Rom 8:29! Nothing more -- it DOESN'T mean the same thing as "foreknown." And nothing less -- it doesn't mean that God is done with you so long as He saves you!

    "Election" = salvation is a Calvinist doctrine. Calvinism has a mistaken view of 1) "foreknown" and of 2) human spirituality.

    Foreknowing is just God's omniscience in operation. It's not predestining or choosing or any such thing -- it is foreseeing or knowing beforehand.

    Human spirituality consists of 1) soul and 2) spirit. Calvinism denies this duality. The soul that dies in sin (Ezek 18:20) must be reborn. The spirit (mind, emotions, and will) remains "open"/free to contemplate that option. So whereas the Calvinist sees no such opportunity, the Bible militates against such foolishness of men. The gospel actually invites men to accept salvation as the alternative 1) to eternity in hell and 2) to a life lived under the "wrath of God." But salvation is NOT monergistic -- an action taken by God without our cooperation/participation.

    skypair
     
    #71 skypair, Jul 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 28, 2008
  12. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    "Iron" doesn't "sharpen iron" without FRICTION, right? Good point, RB! :thumbsup: I don't believe that any of us has all the truth nor is all that we put forth false. Sometimes we need to see "in what ways is LS true? In what ways is it false?"

    There is obviously truth in Calvinism. It is important that we not accept 2nd best, though. As Dr Rogers used to say, "Which is more deceptive? A clock that is 5 minutes off or one that is 2 hours off? 5 minutes! You will have a sense that a clock that is 2 hours off is wrong. The clock that is 5 minutes off is just deceptive enough that you may not know you are late!"

    Calvinism is "5 minutes late." It cannot give us the correct "time" in that it cannot tell us why God chooses whom He does to salvation. Is that not a CRITICAL question? How about this --- Calvinism can't tell us how evil entered into the world (again, free will not fate, right?). Calvinism says that on account of predestincation, God can't "answer" prayer. Calvinism as much as says you are "resigned to your fate" when it comes to heaven or hell. Nothing YOU can "do" about it. Do you believe that?

    skypair
     
    #72 skypair, Jul 28, 2008
  13. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Rogers who? :)
     
    #73 Jarthur001, Jul 28, 2008
  14. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    Skypair,

    Two things my friend,

    1) Yes, I do know what election is. No, I don't agree with your definition of it.

    2) You still have not convinced me you actually understand calvinism. What you have put up as calvinism in your posts, and many I am sure have pointed this out to you before, I have never read from any calvinist...and I have read alot of them. lol

    I also notice you seem much more agreeable to talk to skypair. That is nice to see. If you will actually quote a true calvinist who is explaining election, say for example...C.H. Spurgeon, or someone, and then deal with the actual doctrine, I might dialogue with on you on the subject. :thumbsup:
     
    #74 ReformedBaptist, Jul 28, 2008
  15. JDale

    JDale Member
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    Goldie:

    I thank you for posting, though I'm not sure if you think I don't grasp the meanings and nuances of the Lordship debate in particular. I'm really right there with you on most of the things you said. Below I've highlighted portions of what you said, upon which I comment below your quotes...



    (1) Discipleship, as you said, should not be mistaken for salvation. However, Discipleship IS (and must be viewed as) the proper and expected response of one who is truly saved -- Ephesians 2:8-10:
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, {it is} the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them." It was "prepared beforehand that we would walk in" good works. That's what we were "created in Christ Jesus for." NOT as a means of salvation, but as a RESULT of Salvation.

    (2) I, too, acknowledge, that I am "a sinner saved by grace." Some, however, use that as an excuse not to think thru the very real issues and theological questions we are presented with -- like Calvinist determinism vs. Free Moral agency and God's foreknowledge. I cettainly don't think you use this as an excuse, but I would surmise that you have definite opinions about the extent of the atonement, whether or not one can "resist" saving grace, and whether or not one may apostasize vs. unconditional perseverance.

    (3) That said, I fully agree with you that we are "rotten to the core." What more can I say? We are sinful, we are fallen, we are corrupt, we are lost -- we are TOTALLY DEPRAVED. With the Calvinist and every other Biblical Christian, I bow as the Publican, smite my chest and confess, "I'm just a sinner." From such, I can do NOTHING to contribute to my own salvation. Nothing. In fact, you said that "the works we do as Christians should be to please God..." I find myself with Paul in ROmans 7, not even able to do THAT! My works are no more than "filthy rags" as Isaiah called them.

    (4) I COMPLETELY agree that, were it not for Christ' Righteousness, I could not be in right standing with Christ. When I stand before God, ALL that will give me entrance to His Kingdom is the Robe of Righteousness HE places upon my shoulders! And that robe was/is obtained ONLY by grace alone thru faith alone! I hope you have not tossed me into the category of "works salvation," as this would be antithetical to all I have EVER espoused, taught, preached and believed.

    (5) I have not attempted to stand in judgment of anyone on this thread -- I have attempted to find those here who find themselves in the same general territory as I. That is all. Though, I have BEEN judged by a few...

    (6) Please tell me, in what way could I possibly have "banged heads" with Paul?! First, he was an Apostle, so I imagine I would immediately defer to his considerable knowledge and authority if he concluded I was wrong. Second, I don't think I've advocated anything Paul would not wholeheartedly endorsed -- and had in fact preached or written himself.

    (7) Water Baptism is meant to be a "picture" of salvation. It is a memorial of Christ' death, burial and resurrection -- and of our participation in it spiritually as we "die to self and sin, and rise to walk in newness of life." It ritually reenacts what has taken place in the heart of the believer. In other words, "it is an outward sign of an inward grace." Baptism DOES NOT SAVE, but it is intended as the first step of obedience in the walk of a new believer.

    (8) It seems in your statement's about Lordship that you misunderstand [at least] my view of the matter. Let me explain succinctly, my view -- John MacAurthur can answer for himself:

    First, we don't MAKE Jesus Christ Lord -- He IS LORD. Period.

    Second, We don't come to Him for salvation on OUR TERMS, we come on HIS terms.

    Third, we are not capable of living above all sin while in our flesh. See Romans 7. Even Paul knew that. But your statement above -- "Lordship salvation is saying...that Jesus Controls your life and you are TOTALLY YIELDED..." indicates strongly that you equate the term Lordship with "perfection." As IF... The fact that I acknowledge Jesus as Saviour AND Lord over my life in NO WAY implies I am His perfect servant. I struggle to be obedient and consistent -- and too often I fail. That does not mean He isn't LORD over my life and Saviour of my soul!

    Fourth, you seem to exclude the idea that repentance is a necessary part of salvation. Yet, you state EXACTLY what I have ALWAYS said -- and what the Bible plainly teaches -- regarding the place of REPENTANCE in salvation! You said: "The true meaning of repentance is to have a change of mind, i.e. to change from unbelief to belief in Him." YES! Faith and repentance are two sides of the same coin! They are not "different," nor can they be separated from each other. As Paul writes in Hebrews 6:1 -
    "Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God..."

    We make these terms harder than they have to be, and we split theological hairs that aren't meant to be split -- and it causes divisions that aren't necessary! Salvation IS a free gift. We must merely humble ourselves, and receive it. Hope this explains where I'm coming from...

    Now that I broke my own OP intent, I return you to the regularly scheduled invitation....

    Surely there are others? Don't hide in the corners, or secret yourself in the shadows. Don't turn your knuckles white holding on to the back of the pew before you! Turn loose, and come! Are there others?
    [​IMG]

    JDale
     
    #75 JDale, Jul 28, 2008
  16. JDale

    JDale Member
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    BB:

    How VERY McQuilkin-esque of you! You didn't go to Columbia International University did you? That principle was ingrained in us while I was a student there... Dr. Robertson McQuilkin is a very wise and Godly man.

    JDale
     
    #76 JDale, Jul 28, 2008
  17. JDale

    JDale Member
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    SP:

    MUST you chase RB down on every thread?! I've noted this earlier -- this is NOT specifically relevant to the OP. RB posts on other threads -- "election" may be argued on any number of them. That's not the focus here.

    JDale
     
    #77 JDale, Jul 28, 2008
  18. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Now that would be a "closed minded" exercise, would it not? :laugh: Me having to stand on YOUR ground explaining YOUR theology to you.

    Better yet, as I have tried to do, let's go back to the Bible. Simply put, in biblical terminology, "election" does NOT mean "salvation."

    But second, you ostensibly belong to the Baptist church (else you wouldn't post on this particular forum). That being the case, you may NOT have been exposed to the real Calvinism -- Presbies, Lutherans, etc. Don't tale MY word for it -- go visit. Make it a "field trip." Go see that they are all "snug in their pews" believing that they are saved without having to "lift a finger" in response to God. They recite the "Apostle's Creed" as if it were "necessary and sufficient" to salvation and they "cap" every prayer off with "the Lord's Prayer" as if that had some mystical power. Being baptized as an infant for "original sin" and entrance into the kingdom is a HUGE thing (similar to Catholics)! Communion still transmits "grace" to the partaker in some way. Not "saving grace," mind you, but "cleansing" grace at that very least.

    skypair
     
    #78 skypair, Jul 29, 2008
  19. ReformedBaptist

    ReformedBaptist Well-Known Member

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    JDale,

    Sorry about this brother. But I think Skypair is Irresistably attracted to my posts. :laugh:

    Skypair,

    I have a plethra of presbyterian works on my shelves, and I beginning my seminary work with a presbyterian seminary. I am finally going to get to study John Calvin's works. Hoorah!

    Our church is having a joint service with Grace Presbyterian Church in Douglasville this coming Lord's Day evening. We will be taking the Lord's Table together. Hallelujah!

    And yes, I am a member in good standing with Berean Baptist Church, a reformed Baptist church in Austell, GA, confessionally 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (of which I take a minor exception at this point, but I am researching).

    My point is, I love my presbyterian brethren. I love my Independant Baptist brethren, SBC brethren, methodist brethren, charismatic brethren, et. I love my brethren in Christ in whatever demonation or non-denomnation they might be in.

    My suggestion is that you visit them. I have attended both Lutheran and Presbyterian services. Nothing what you are describing happened there. I love my Lutheran brethren, but there are some area where I disagree with them on. But I would take the Lord's Table with them anytime I the Lord gave me a chance.

    And I have been thinking about attending Calvary Free Presbyterian Church on Sunday evenings on occasion. Very loving people and a great pastor.

    RB
     
    #79 ReformedBaptist, Jul 29, 2008
  20. JDale

    JDale Member
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    Whoa Calvie! ;-)


    Wait wait!! Okay, first, obviously SP has absolutely no regard for my aim for this thread. I find that more than a little disquieting....

    Second -- I thought Calvie's believed in CLOSED Communion!? How is it you practice Communion with other churches -- of other denominations, no less? Early [Calvinist] Particular Baptists certainly wouldn't have allowed such!

    You go on to mention you would take the Lord's Table with them anytime...? Doesn't this violate the tenant of Closed Communion too? If I, not a member of your Church, and not a Calvinist, were to attend this service Sunday evening -- or a communion service at your home church -- would I not be excluded from the Lord's Table? If not, some of your Calvinist compadres might take you to task! If so, WELCOME TO THE PRACTICE OF OPEN COMMUNION! [​IMG]

    JDale
     
    #80 JDale, Jul 29, 2008
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