Bethany Divinity College and Seminary

Things seem to be different in schools and departments of education than schools and departments of theology, so I can't really address education degrees. FYI, my bachelor of science is from Georgia Southern, am MDiv and DMin from Luther Rice, and a separate MDiv and PhD (church history) from SBTS. I can vouch for the rigor of the School of Theology at Southern.

As I and others have stated, accreditation is not the all in all determinant of academic excellence. However, accreditation usually means that an institution has met minimal standards, not that it is academically rigorous. Some seminaries are more rigorous than others, just as some secular institutions are more rigorous than others.

Again, some grads of good programs completed the degree through sheer perseverance and focus. They may not know much about anything else, but they know a lot about the area in which they did their doctorate. BTW, having a PhD or a DMin or whatever does not mean that the man will be a worthy minister. Some folks are simply confused about their calling.

Also, while there are exceptions to the rule, there is little comparison between a major writing project for a DMin and a research oriented dissertation for a PhD. The typical DMin writing project tells about the implementation of sort facet of ministry in a laboratory situation, typically the writer's local church. The PhD dissertation involves countless hours of research and writing.

I used the word "typical" because, as a couple of forum members will testify, their DMin projects were more like PhD dissertations. I was able to style my own DMin project much like a research oriented dissertation, though it was only some 100 plus pages. My PhD dissertation, though, involved much, much more and ended up something like 328 pages plus bibliography.

That said, length and quality are not neccesarily correlative. An institution's requirements, such as what I've seen in schools like Bethany, Andersonville, and Covington, are of such a poor level that a student can write reams of what is basically transcribed sermons given on a particular topic. For instance, I could have my current series of sermons through the book of Romans transcribed, printed, and bound, and they would comprise thousands of pages. I have seen "dissertations" which were nothing more than such as that. The project may have had 300 pages, but it wasn't doctoral-level work.

If you are serious about distance education, I would encourage you to check out Luther Rice or Whitefield. Other forum members may have other suggestions. Your degree will mean more to you than it will from Bethany, IMO.

Oh, and one last point, ATS accreditation has never really impressed me. I put more stock in regional accreditation. Some seminaries, Masters comes to mind, has never sought ATS accreditation but has regional accreditation. Southern, on the other hand, has both.

I've droned on enough, so much so that I don't have time to proof what I've written. Please excuse whatever typos and syntax errors you find! The Bible is inerrent; my typing is not! :type:

Blessings,
Bill

 

Spartacus

I will just as happily attempt to evaluate deficiencies in accredited schools as those in unaccredited schools. In my opinion, the quality of a doctorate in Bible/Theology can be measured by several criteria apart from accreditation.

I have before me as I type this with one finger, oh I wish I had given more attention to 8th grade typing instead of the girls in that class, the Bethany catalogue of 2000 called "Global Connection." I don't believe, judging from a recent look at the Dothan website, that much has changed.

1. FACULTY (core)

lists one person , O' Donnell, with an accredited PhD/ThD, not a DMin, who teaches "practical theology." So, I assume his ThD is in Praxis. NNE who is said to teach Bible/Theology has an accredited doc in Bib/Theol!!
This is one reason why Bethany of Dothan could not even achieve TRACS accreditation (see TRACS standards on line)

2.DEGREE OFFERINGS .

Yet, Bethany without any core faculty member who has him/herself chosen to experience the rigor of an accredited doc in Bib/Theol offers the PhD in religion with a concentration in Bible and a DTS in Theological studies. IMO, this is a BIG redflag and suggests that the Bethany doc experience will be substandard!

3. DEGREE REQUIREMENTS.

Prerequisites:

Consider by way of comparison, that Dallas requires the ThM (total 4 yrs of grad study) as does The Masters to enter their PhD or ThD programs. That prerequisite, which is predicated on the MDiv in some schools, makesa prereq of about 125 grad semester units , a thesis, and two languages before beginning the doc. But, Bethany of Dothan allows one to enter its PhD program with a unaccredited 40 hour masters! and requires no languages. The Dothan Doc in Theology has even a lower prereq ...a 32 hr masters!!

In my opinion, unless the prereqs to enter a doc program are fairly high, the learning in that program must remain fairly low!

. Coursework:

The Dothan PhD in Bible is 64 hours. That's OK, but consider that the two required courses in OT will not use Hebrew because Hebrew is not a requisite for entering the PhD. And the two required courses in NT will not use Greek for the same reason. So, in my catalogue, one gets a PhD in Bible with only four doc level courses in Bible and without any use of the Biblical languages.

An effect of this, besides a general ignorance, is the inability to use the more scholarly tools of research as exegetical commentaries and lexicons.

Of course, if as some here appear to do ,one supposes that God perches on one's shoulder teaching one, then scholarly tools are not required ; neither is any training!

.THESIS: The 20,000 word req is low. I have written 20,000 words for a single class!! But aside from that IMO it will be quite unlikely that a scholarly doctoral product in Bible without the use of Biblical languages can be done.

4.INTERACTION:

There needs to be an efficient relationship between the graduate student and his class profs and his doctoral supervisor. If one adds the number of courses in the PhD in Bible with those in the DTS, one has a total of about 30 courses. If one adds to these those in the masters programs in Bib/Theol one has a total of about 55 courses plus the major written products of each which this tiny faculty must supervise!!! Then let's suppose that Bethany has but 50 students doing masters/doctoral programs in Bib/theol.

My question would be, how in the world can such a small faculty do efficient course/program interaction with so many courses X students???.

5. A STORY:

I have a virtual friend who is listed as adjunct faculty in the 2000 catalogue. I will not name him! He finished a ThM/PhD at Bethany with a concentration in Christian Counseling. Admittedly, counseling is not Bib/Theol, but there was certainly some course work in Bib/Theol.

This friend graduated from Dothan with those degrees and was Unitarian in his doctrine of God!! His teachers never discovered that because the inefficient interaction did not lead to that discovery! Scouts honor!!! (He now, however is Trinitarian).

When Shumake discovered this "slight oversight," my pal, of course, lost his adjunct position. Talk about closing the barn door late.

This anecdote suggests to me that there is not much interaction going on at Bethany between faculty and students. I will agree that this also can occur in accredited programs.

6.UTILITY.

If one feels that the Dothan grad studies are quality, then, here's a challenge: name but three Bethany grads of masters programs in Bib/Theol who, in all the years of Bethany's existence, have, on the strength of the Bethany training , entered and and completed RA accredited doc programs in these subjects. Grads of Bethany are simply unprepared to do so!

7. A CAVEAT: I am not qualified to address the issue of whether Bethany can train for pastoral work as I am not a pastor

now, I rest my finger

 

Actually Bethany does have core accredited PhD's in their education departmental and one has a PhD from Purdue.

What about foreign degrees such as South Africa. Just because the "State" recognizes the degree does not mean they could meet ATS or regional accreditation. Yet they are "cheaper". As for minimal standards, please define for me the standards. It seems to me accrediting orgs. are concerned about facilities and libraries. Come on guys get real. When I was at Southern that is where the Accrediting group spent their time.

One thing I have questioned is why do Seminaries require so much more credit hours than a secular institution. If you think about it, it is like the MTh is the equivalent to a secular Master's degree. Why do many Seminaries not require thesis at the MA and MDiv level. When one talks about minimal standards one need to be able to define what the standards are. From Secular and religious accreditation organizations it seems they have created their own standards and the government hands out money in loans. Why such discrepancies.

As for the rock illustration I suppose the quoter was hit.

Have any of ya talk to people serving accreditation organizations. This is almost funny. I do not think Seminaries, in large part, serve the churches anymore. It has become a money making machine under the guise of religiosity. I am talking organizationally at this point. This is a very real and serious problem when modern day pharisees are fleecing those trying to crediting themselves.

Wow, the more I think this through the more anti establishment I seem to be becoming. Just to think I was ordained as a Southern Baptist.

By the way, In 1994 when taking interdenominational relations. (Amazing you can take for credit this kind of nonsense) the SBC had over $7 Billion dollars worth of assets alone. This at a time when the majority of pastors were bi-vocational. The idea that education has to be as expensive as it is is utterly foolish thinking and an indictment of the lack of understanding in how much it actually costs to maintain and fund buildings.

Just keeping it real. On the other hand you guys may be right about Bethany, I do not know for sure. All I know is that Southern, as I took Master level classes as my wife did completing her MA, is that it is not as rigorous as was mentioned. I'm sorry, it just was not. My wife and I still make fun of Southern in their denial that they were ever a "academic" school and I was there during the holocaust. The changeover from Honeycutt to Mohlar. Ahhh, those were the days when a conservative could actually scrap with a true blue homosexual confessing Christan.

Anyway, I digress.

Blessings Guys :wavey:

 

When did you take master's-level classes at Southern? My experience was from 1998-2003. I had a few courses from holdovers from the previous administration, and I didn't find them very difficult. The new profs, though, had much higher requirements.

As to why an MDiv requires so many more hours than an MA, it is because the MDiv is not built upon an undergrad degree in the same field. Any baccalaureate can get a person into an MDiv program. The MDiv was originally a bachelor of divinity degree, but the nomenclature was upgraded in 1960's or 70's (I think), as in some other professions.


Bill

 

Thank you Bill for making my point. So, one starts off in a masters degree program not having to "know" much about what they are taking and at a Master level. Am I the only one who sees the contradiction in academic argumentation here? Yet we have all kinds of undergraduate degrees. Interesting the MDiv is still around Why, BECAUSE IT IS A MONEY MAKER. :BangHead:

I was at Southern from 1992-1994. Professors Molly Marshall (Feminist Theologian and a wonderful, caring human being no matter how much I disagreed with her. Pro. Paul Simmons who defile the sacred abstract of principles and showed a porn video in his ethics class of paraplegics having sex to demonstrate that the handicap were sexual beings as well. Even the liberals walked out of his class. I was not in his class but talk to folks who were who had walked out. Then there was Pro. Frank Tupper who when puled from Tuesday chapel (televised) because of what he may say took opportunity to mock the publishing of the New American Commentary by the Sunday School board because it was revising the ones they did not agree with.

Ahhh, come on your making me go to, probably the best part of my entering ministry and education when a Seminarian had to actuality know what they were arguing with those who really believed that Jesus was not God and that homosexuality was of God to those in "loving" relationships". Believe or not this was an exciting time in the life of Southern baptist and I cont it a privilege to have lived out this period of history. When I use the term holocaust I mean just that. (This is a term my uncle uses and I have adapted it to my vocabulary when talking about this time period) I was accused of using too much scripture in my debates and in one heated exchange was accused of focusing my arguments around the centrality of the Cross.

I am a firm believer that it was the Boyce Bible School (that is what it was called at the time) which held that place together. It was known not to debate with a Boyce student regarding what the bible said because they knew the Bible too well. This is the honest to goodness truth. It was a wonderful time for ministry prep.

You know something is going on spiritually when you leave Seminary of one of the most conservative denominations in North America with apologetic battle scars.:jesus:

When I was invited on campus this summer to look at their doctoral program I couldn't believe how boring and inactive it was. Nothing like it was when I was there. Even for a summer. :tonofbricks:

Blessings

 

Exactly.

So if a person earns a B.A. in Bible/Theology, he should skip seminary and do a university Ph.D. instead.

Or the seminaries could implement a 96 hour Ph.D. program to replace the M.Div. for those students. But they won't. Money, money, money!

 

Did you mean from BA to MA? I don't think you could skip unless you are in the European model of Education.

The problem is, or at least here in Canada, is that most universities do not recognize or accept undergraduate degrees from bible colleges. This has been a partic ular issue at U of R. When my wife who has a MA in Education from Southern took her Bachalor after degree in Education ( to teach in school in Canada you have to have this kind of degree) they would not accept any of her courses and fulling the exact course she was being required to take.

So, those who think they they are something because the have accredited degree may find that their degree will not be accepted by some academic institution.

As an American it was good to leave the US because I have found that we really do not have much understanding how things work elsewhere.

I spent over $20,000 for my masters and most universities will not recognize it and it is an ATS. This is what I mean about minimum standards. It seems we are impressing ourselves in our own little microcosm.

Let me address what DTh stated about non-accredited doctorates. He stated that there some really good ones. He mentions one. So, let us follow his logic out to its conclusion. What makes this a legitimate school in his eyes? It is that they accredited doctorate overseeing the program and students. O.K. so I get a MA or DR from there. This means I have minimum standard education and I go somewhere else that is not accredited, is my credentials know illegitimate because I am now once removed? You see if you follow this logic then it must also apply to accredited school who have accredited profs giving accredited degrees to those who will go away and teach. But they are once removed as well. So using the same logic, there education will be lesser in quality as well. This seems to be thermal dynamics of learning. The only other way to see the logic is the opposite way and that is if an accredited degree grad teaches a non-accredited degree grad then the newly degree grad ought to have the same abilities as the accredited grad.

When one goes through the logic one can only find that this whole accreditation this is about ego and justification on why we spend so much. Quite frankly the majority of research degrees no matter how one ants to argue are far substandard than many European and secular countries. They view many of these academias extreme light weights and they are in comparison.

It is all about realizing, especially as Americans, how truly arrogant we are. It no longer angers me as much as it saddens me to watch. We truly care more about what others think more than what we ourselves think we are and can be. To be pitied actually.:tear:

 

I suspect he meant from BA to MA

Your wife's degree from Southern would have been an MA in Christian Education, a degree which prepares one for church educational ministries, not teaching in a grade school. Do you mean that the Canadian school would not accept her SBTS master's courses? Again, that would not be unusual because they have a completely different purpose than teaching children in grade school. I have a bachelor in science in eduation, a completely different animal that a degree in Christian education (which used to be called religious education and then church education).

Again, you have to make sure the degrees line up. You cannot mix apples and oranges.

What do you mean that "most universities will not recognize it"? That's a broad brush. In what way will they not recognize it?

Your first scenario doesn't strike me as a logical conclusion, but your second does. If a person receives a doctorate from an nonaccredited institution which has qualified profs and similar requirements as accredited schools, then that grad is likewise proven qualified. I know of accredited seminaries that have hired doctoral grads of solid, non-accredited schools because of the reputation of the non-accredited school. Bob Jones University comes to mind.

Can you substantiate that?

Arrogance cuts both ways, to be sure.

Blessings,
Bill

[I received an email notice that UZThD had posted during my typing this. Now, what could he possibly say?! :wavey:]

 

S.


If I am your referent about the "once removed etc, , then, I'm sorry I don't see your reasoning.

 

Sorry, but I didn't make your point at all. Let me explain what I meant in case I miscommunicated.

The basic MDiv is a 3-year degree because it is not built on the discipline of one's undergrad degree. So, it's as though the seminary student were taking another 3rd and 4th year of college and adding another year for their master's degree.

That's why many of us argue that a person who has a Bible or theology undergrad degree should be required to take only a one-year degree for his master's degree. That would be more in line with secular educational requirements.

To claim that the MDiv is still around because it is a money maker is quite silly. My undergrad was not in Bible or theology. I should have been required to do a 3-year degree for a master of divinity to have credibility as a master's degree.

If MDivs are only to make money for the seminary, who is making the money? Let's just use SBTS, for instance. The SBC doesn't receive any money from SBTS; it gives money to SBTS. The profs certainly are getting rich. They make much less than their secular counterparts. Sorry, but I just don't see your point. I fear that your cynicism is a bit over the top (and I say that as a fellow cynic!).

Bill

 

my hometown is Dothan. (not current hometown, but rather where I grew up).


Is Florida Baptist Theological Seminary (formerly Baptist Bible Institute) in Graceville an option for you?

(Fairly ignorant on Bethany...though my family still lives in Dothan, I don't get down there much).

 

My wifes MA was in Christian Education but courses such as "developmental psychology" was done at southern and was secular in content. U of R will let you skip courses that are redundant. In this case it was said that because this came from a Seminary it was not accepted. To add when she was hired the school board would not recognize the fact that she had at least thirty graduate hours in related field. I pushed her to challenge it and she won and she was promoted to highest pay grade. U of R is quite anti-Christian.

I have a question for UZ/THd. Can a non accredited school file dissertation in the general system whatever that I called?

As for what people think about an SA degree well, they have not really evaluated it so it is speculation. All I am saying here is that the discrepancies are way out of control. Why do we need so many accreditation agencies anyway. I do believe that if the money was there that there could be a challenge to the government exclusion of funding on religious issues as well as discrimination issues. But let us not go there. I would suppose UZ/ThD is speaking in regards to PhD or similar degrees. I in many ways agree with him. And no, UZ the illustration was not about you but anyone. But why keep the MDiv so long? Now Many have to their credit have reduced the MDiv on the basis of undergraduate studies and I would certainly agree that one gets more out of what they take having an understanding in what one studies.

I disagree with some of you guys parsing of degrees. For example the PhD and Ded are the same level of degree. The reason for the difference was in focus of type of methodology in revealing findings. In fact there is a discussion even within secular institutions about possible dropping the D.Ed and going back to the PhD in education in order to stop the confusion.

As for these non-accrediting degree programs, what if this schools dropped the PhD and like and kept general DTS, DMin, DRS?

These kinds of debates remind me of all the differing translation. All have aspects of truth exist but...

Hey, UZ. I was talking to my brother in law and he has had conversations with you. He lives in Calgary, Alberta and began a doctorate in SA at U of SA in some kind of theology. I do not know what name he goes by but he is a pastor who is planting a church.:applaus

The language requirement are ridiculous in these days as well. I have talk to tons of PhD Bible and theology who think it ought to be options. Virtually nobody I talk to remember enough of it to matter and if anyone thinks the seminary requirements of languages are enough for any real work in the language just think they know Greek or Hebrew. Viv Thomas, a graduate of Regent University commented to me that language requirements today are a joke. With the resources today they are relics unless you are translating. I had a graduate of Cambridge professor (spilsbury, dean of Theology at CTS soon to be Ambrose University) tell the class that if they wanted to really learn Greek or Hebrew they would have to do far more than what seminaries require.

 

Concerning language requirements, I think they should be strengthened, not reduced. BTW, quite a few seminaries have made them optional, and I don't think that benefits the student.

You are right in that what seminaries require are not enough to do real translation work. However, they enable one to utilize the software in a way that the one without languages could never do. I use BibleWorks 7 and would feel much more limited had I not had seminary Hebrew and Greek. I am certainly no language scholar, but I have been in the ministry for almost 30 years.

Spartacus, why don't you start another thread focusing on some of these issues? The discussion is good, but I think we've strayed away from discussing Bethany.

Bill

 

I have asked about Bethany and the like in regards to any Doctor degree that they could give that would be of any credibility.

I am trying to some of ya to just explain to me what the standard is. If you do not agree with the PhD at Bethany, and I can understand that. Is there any degree that they give worth merit?

As to languages it wouldn't matter how much you take. If you are not quite involved in it you lose it. It is like French. 301 verbs, you don't use it you lose it. Language as well was an issue for Bethany not being valid in their giving of doctorate in Bible.

I have looked at LBU but I suppose the same arguments? If not what is the difference.

 

ian.

I have a question for UZ/THd. Can a non accredited school file dissertation in the general system whatever that I called?t

===

I am really sorry that I don't understand. What is "file dissertation in the general system that I called?t" ???

====

As for what people think about an SA degree well, they have not really evaluated it so it is speculation.

====

What is your evidence that opinion on a SA doc is mere "speculation"?

Have you read John Bears "Guide To Earning Degrees"? Do you think John Bear who says that if the Ministry of Education in Pretoria approves of a universities degree programs, then that school meets the generally accepted accrediting principles. That is not speculation.

A tenured prof of Corban College with a Dallas PhD , as I said read my dissertation ; his conclusion about it, therefore, was not speculation.

If a degree has utility, that is not speculation! I can use, and have, my SA qualification to teach , read a paper to the Evangelical Theological Society , and now with H. Wayne House to write (just started). That is not speculation.

Not too bad for an old man of 67 who didn't finish the doc until he was 65. Other folks as seminary presidents and profs have and utilize SA docs. So IMO, you are wrong.

====

I would suppose UZ/ThD is speaking in regards to PhD or similar degrees. I in many ways agree with him. And no, UZ the illustration was not about you but anyone. But why keep the MDiv so long? Now Many have to their credit have reduced the MDiv on the basis of undergraduate studies and I would certainly agree that one gets more out of what they take having an understanding in what one studies.

==

I am not sure the MDiv as it is now is such a good thing. SA doesn't much offer it.

===



Hey, UZ. I was talking to my brother in law and he has had conversations with you. He lives in Calgary, Alberta and began a doctorate in SA at U of SA in some kind of theology. I do not know what name he goes by but he is a pastor who is planting a church.:applaus

===

Wow, see if he can get me a griz hunt. I'm half serious. I know I came down a notch when House, who guides tours in the holy land, asked me if Id like to go and I answered that I rather fish yellow tail in BaHa or hunt griz in Alaska :laugh: . Just not spiritual enough.

 

Sorry I am unclear here for I am quite naive in this area. As I understand when one does a dissertation in the US particular one has to check and see if someone has done it already. When it is bound and passes oral or whatever it is then cataloged. It is then available fort inter library loan.

I am wandering if non-accredited schools can catalog dissertations. If they can then this is certainly a discrepancy on their part for not authenticating heir claims for high academic standards.

Again, I am lost when it comes to this area. I know there is a search one does to make sure one is not using the same thesis. I had a prof. that had to stop his doctorate because someone had done the same thing and submitted it before him. In so doing it made all the work useless for what he was doing and I think they granted him a MTh. This was in Montreal. The name escapes just now.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion. Iron sharpens iron and I appreciate your insights and experience.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean about cataloguing dissertations. The seminary at which one does one's dissertation will typically have two copies bound to be placed in their library. A seminary does not have to be accredited to do that. If there is a place where doctorates from accredited institutions only are catalogued, I'm not aware of it.

When I chose the topic for my dissertation, I did internet searches of dissertations, and there is a web site that you can do such a search. I do not recall what it is. And while you cannot do a dissertation which someone else has done, you can do something similar by coming at it from a different angle.

Bill

 

O.K guys. all these research degrees and it seems that there is all kinds of misrepresentation on Bethany. This took me all but 2 minutes or less.

1) Luther Rice is accredited by tracshttp://www.lru.edu/Content.aspx?page=accreditation

This will be important for #2

2) It was said that the head of Biblical theology did not have an accredited PhD in Biblical studies.

Well, on page 44 of the catalog that can be opened with Adobe but I will save you the time and type it out.

"Dr. H. Fred Williams attended Clarke Memorial College where he received an Associate of Arts and a Bachelor of Arts at Mississippi college. He was graduated from New Orleans Baptist Theological Seminary with both a Master of Divinity and Master of Religious Education degree. He also attended Stetson University where hereceved a Master of Arts and attended Luther Rice Seminary where he graduated wih both a Master of Theology and a Doctor of Theology degree."

3) If you look at who contributed in developing their curriculum you will find those there whose credentials are accredited.

The misrepresentation and trashing of chairs at this school show me nothing more than people holding doctoral degrees yet speaking in a reckless and incompetent manner.

Some of you should be ashamed to say that you hold a research degree of "rigger" when you can't even get something as simple as this right if you even hold one. This is unbelievable. :laugh: There is no way there those who hold a doctorate here. I thought the lack of understanding in how degrees are developed seemed odd but then again one is from SA. What does one expect.

No need wasting my time here with this shallowness and closed mindedness.

:wavey: