BETRAYAL

Discussion in 'Calvinism/Arminianism Debate' started by utilyan, Jul 9, 2016.

  1. utilyan

    utilyan
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    Probably the first name to come to a Christian's mind:

    Judas Iscariot.
    If he was never on your team, then it would not be called BETRAYAL.

    Common sense.


    It would be a infiltrator, spy.



    Same goes with words like Rebellion.

    If Canada decided to attack the United States you wouldn't call the United States rebels or in rebellion.

    If within United States there was a war seeking to overthrow the government that is rebellion.
     
  2. tyndale1946

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    Yes that does come to mind but what about the way he was betrayed... Did he betray him on his own?... What does verse three mean?... Jesus knew the very thoughts and intents of the heart and mind... Then why did he let it happen?... For this hour came I unto the world... Brother Glen

    Luke 22:1 Now the feast of unleavened bread drew nigh, which is called the Passover.

    22:2 And the chief priests and scribes sought how they might kill him; for they feared the people.

    22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

    22:4 And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them.

    22:5 And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money.

    22:6 And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.
     
  3. TCassidy

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    Betrayal: to deceive, misguide, or corrupt.

    Judas deceived the disciples into thinking he was one of them.

    Judas misguided the others to think he was trustworthy.

    Judas corrupted the group by his vile conduct.
     
  4. utilyan

    utilyan
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    1 Corinthians 12
    27Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.

    Judas was appointed apostle. Being of the highest office in the church he would have to meet all the qualifications of lower offices bishop/overseer/deacons.



    Acts 1
    17“For he was counted among us and received his share in this ministry.”


    Luke 6
    16Judas the son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.


    If he was a traitor from the beginning, he wouldn't have "become" a traitor.
     
  5. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist
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    Jesus chose him for exactly what he ultimately did - to betray him! Proof?

    1. Jesus knew he was a lost man when he chose him as he was lost from the very beginning - Jn. 6:64

    But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. - Jn. 6:64

    2. Jesus knew he was a "devil" from the beginning -

    Jn. 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?


    3. Jesus called him the "son of perdition" for this very purpose:

    Jn. 13:26 Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
    27 And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.

    Jn. 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


    1.Notice in John 6:64 that he was never a believer "from the beginning"
    2. Notice the present tense state of being verbs in Jn 6:70 and John 17:12 He "is" a devil and "is" lost
    3. Notice Jesus knew all of this from the very beginning but chose him that "scripture might be fulfilled" as he was the "son of perdition" set apart by God for that very act "from the beginning"
     
  6. utilyan

    utilyan
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    He called Peter Satan.

    You have to be on the same side for it to be BETRAYAL.

    To be a TRAITOR.


    In acts a legit "BISHOPRICK" ministry was held by Judas. With higher requirements he had to meet all criteria of overseer or deacon an apostle.

    The idea that Jesus Christ would knowingly appoint to the holy office of apostle a child of the devil would be a sacrilege on Jesus part.....ie that's a SIN.



    Matthew 10
    1Jesus summoned His twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every kind of disease and every kind of sickness.


    NOT ELEVEN.......TWELVE. Also there is an issue here with Satan casting out Satan.

    Matthew 12
    25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?

    Jesus is saying Satan cannot cast out Satan. Jesus Christ gave Judas Iscariot AUTHORITY to cast out Satan.



    Matthew 19

    27Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” 28And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


    Not Eleven......TWELVE.


    Matthew 12 (TWELVE)

    49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 50“For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”


    Judas Iscariot was FAMILY to Jesus Christ.


    Luke 14
    33“So then, none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.
    34“Therefore, salt is good; but if even salt has become tasteless, with what will it be seasoned? 35“It is useless either for the soil or for the manure pile; it is thrown out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

    Requirement met by Judas not only that requirement but the higher ones of overseer,deacon, and apostle.. You had to be CHRISTIAN just be a disciple.


    Judas was disciple and an APOSTLE. that is the highest office of the church, Judas was part of the church. A member of the body of Christ. Heres qualifications for this office: 1 timothy 3, Titus 1

    The idea that Jesus knowingly pick a UNSAVED person to the position of apostle is to accuse Jesus of a blasphemy/sin.

    Matthew 10
    22“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

    Jesus warned the apostles those that endure will be saved.

    Judas was never saved to begin with and Jesus told him "but if he endures to the end he will be saved".
     
  7. JonC

    JonC
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    John 6:61-71Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve. Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God." Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" (He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.) John 6:61-71

    Scripture seems to indicate that there were followers of Jesus who did not believe. It also indicates that Judas was among them. And, believe it or not, Scripture seems to say that Jesus knew this from the beginning - even as he chose Judas to be among the Twelve.
     
  8. utilyan

    utilyan
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    If the bible said Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not want hamburgers and who wanted French Fries.

    That doesn't mean the guy who wanted French Fries doesn't want a hamburger.

    That's why we use words like NIETHER and NOR rather two "who's"



    BELIEF, Trust, obedience, and LOYALTY are different things.

    I could connect belief and obedience together that disqualifies everyone including the Eleven as apostles.

    Belief doesn't always mean acknowledge their existence.


    Jesus calling out a DEVIL rather then a Atheist, gives you even a worst case.

    Judas believes, just like Satan believes Jesus is the Christ. A DEVIL believes in GOD.
    A Devil has been IN THE PRESENCE of God. There is not ONE DEVIL that doesn't believe in God.

    If Judas was NEVER a apostle Jesus would have said "have I not chosen eleven"


    Let me give you an example:



    Matthew 7
    22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’


    Matthew 12
    24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
    25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27


    When you reconcile both these verses it should be clear that those of Matthew 7 indeed had the LEGIT belief and authority of Jesus Christ. and did GOOD THINGS in the name of Jesus Christ.

    They are not casting out devils by the devils power else as Jesus pointed out it would be contradictory and Satan is dived against himself.

    If they were NON-believers in the sense of existence and trust they wouldn't believe they could cast out demons or do miracles to begin with.

    If you think about it the entire point of Matthew 7 verse is precisely AGAINST Once Saved Always Saved.

    22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’


    Jesus already laid out that the devil can't give authority for devil casting out devils. Because if he does he will mess himself up "kingdom divided". On the devil's boat the crew are not allowed to have guns.......because they'd kill each other and the boat would sink right away.

    So "UNBELIEVERS" being under the authority of Satan can't cast out or do miracles.

    Its BELIEVERS who are under the authority of Jesus who cast out demons and do miracles.
    They fall because they practice lawlessness. They are fallen they don't have the authority of Jesus, they cannot do miracles or cast out demons.
     
  9. JonC

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    What John is showing here is not only is there division between Jesus and the Jewish people (His people by nationality), but also there is division within Jesus’ followers. Those who are “truly his disciples” are those who hold to his teachings (8:31). This does not characterize Judas.

    In the end, Judas is counted among the Twelve, but he is not numbered among those who are “truly his disciples", who "believes", who "hold to his teachings". Whatever one may take the word “believe” to mean, if it is not in the context of being a true disciple of Christ then it is not the type of belief that people who believe in eternal life. Nothing that you have presented here disproves the doctrine that those who believe will have eternal life. But it does highlight the fact that many professing Christians do not "believe".
     
  10. utilyan

    utilyan
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    I don't think anyone numbered among "truly his disciple".

    "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

    He didn't ask Judas only.

    He didn't thank the apostles.

    ALL of them betrayed him ran and left him alone, when he was arrested.


    Very next chapter, Jesus is by himself


    John 7
    5For not even His brothers were believing in Him.


    Are Jesus' brothers damned and unsaved?



    John 7

    . 8“Go up to the feast yourselves; I do not go up to this feast because My time has not yet fully come.” 9Having said these things to them, He stayed in Galilee.
    10But when His brothers had gone up to the feast, then He Himself also went up, not publicly, but as if, in secret.


    Here is a bonus nugget for fun, Did Jesus just LIE to his brothers? :Sneaky

    Hint: Jesus is not a Liar.
     
  11. JonC

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    No, Jesus is not a liar, and if I appeared to be disrespecting you to the degree as to indicate you were calling Jesus a liar by denying eternal life, then you have my sincere apology. That was not my intention, and I do realize that our differences are within interpretation which can be discussed without insult between Christians even when they don't agree. I am sorry if it appeared that I was implying you were calling "Jesus a liar."

    But no, John is clear that those who reject Christ after being "numbered among" Jesus' followers were not in truth one of them. We are also told to test ourselves to be assured that we are "among the elect". If we were to descend into the logical fallacies of "Did Jesus LIE" or "MY Bible says" or " Scripture plainly"....whatever one's pet fallacies may be...then I would point you to Numbers 23:19 and suggest a more detailed study of John may certainly be in order....but we are adults (at I think we are both adults) so let's not go there ;).

    Jesus' brothers (in the sense that God became "one of us" and "tabernacled" among men) does include all mankind (both those who are damned and unsaved). In the sense that God has given Jesus a people, those who are "in Christ", and that Jesus is the "Firstborn" of many brethern, then those brothers are only ones who are saved (who are given of the Father, who have the right to be called "children of God", who are born of spirit, who "believe", who have "eternal life", and of whom "none shall be lost" but all shall "be raised up on that day".

    Those who come to Jesus calling out "Lord, Lord" are "not known" by Jesus. It is not that Jesus doesn't know who they are, nor is it that they do not recognize who He is. In fact, they legitimately believe they are saved and emphatically call Him "Lord". But they do not call on Him as Lord. They NEVER believed. Jesus NEVER knew them. And, if there remains a doubt in your mind, Jesus is not a liar. :)
     
    #11 JonC, Aug 3, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2016
  12. utilyan

    utilyan
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    You haven't offended me. From every post I've read from you have been very polite and kind.

    I just brought up the Jesus "lie" up for FUN having stumbled on it on John 7.
    My bible "knowledge" is very tiny and your input is very helpful.

    Like if you start talking about old testament bad kings and stuff......you will lose me. :Laugh

    If I do get angry ill make sure to use one of these!-->:mad:



    The meat and potatoes of the post is his brothers.

    Who is Jesus' brothers?

    Matthew 12

    46While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him. 47Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.” 48But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?” 49And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers! 50“For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

    Here he is stretching out his hands towards disciples.....and none of these are going to be around. To give you some reference point between Mathew and John, He feeds the 5000 in Mathew 14, john 5, mark 8, luke 9 (I had to look up mark and luke didn't know where it was)


    We see people who are believers and who even work miracles and cast out demons which is only possible by belief and receiving the authority of Jesus. And these many of these Jesus warns will and do FALL.
     
  13. JonC

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    Thanks. I did not think that our differences warranted an offense, and am glad we are still "on speaking terms" ;).

    I cannot speak for others who believe OSAS, but if it helps to understand my position (and why I support the doctrine of eternal security) then I'll offer this - those people that Scripture speaks of as being the "people of God" or the "sheep" of whom none are lost are has in mind a people present "at the last day". The "last day" is always presented as the day of judgment.

    So there is a sense where I agree with you as the ONLY assurance that one EVER has in this lifetime that he or she is truly saved is that they find themselves "walking in the light" and being obedient to Christ's commandments. This does not mean, however, that someone without assurance is not necessarily saved. It does mean that the only way I can know that I am saved is if I am obedient to Christ's commandments.

    When I suggest that whosoever believes will inherit eternal life, I mean those who posses a belief that endures (and I believe this endurance is of the Father). So we are in fact looking forward "to that day". None who believe but do not persevere are saved. But all who believe and persevere are saved. Perseverance is a part of this "belief" in terms of genuine salvation.

    I apologize if this is a clear as mud, or less articulate than a three year old Calvinist...But that's how I see it. Those who "believe" unto salvation are those "numbered among the elect" of whom none are lost but all are raised on that last day. Those we see falling aside are like Judas who lacked "belief", or like those of whom John spoke as being among them but not a part of them as evidenced by their departure.
     
  14. StefanM

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    I tend to think of betrayal in terms similar to treason.

    You cannot commit treason against someone or some nation to whom you do not owe fealty/loyalty.

    Because Jesus is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, ALL people owe him fealty/loyalty, and every knee will eventually bow (Phil. 2:9-11).

    Jesus is Lord over every person, even if they do not recognize him as Lord. Those in rebellion, treason, betrayal, etc., will not inherit the Kingdom of God, and those who submit to Jesus as Lord will inherit the Kingdom of God because the Father graciously pardons them through Jesus' death and resurrection.
     
  15. BobRyan

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    The Jews were fond of taking that approach to Christians
     
  16. Van

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    Not sure what this thread has to do with Calvinism. To betray is to give over someone into the hands of the enemy. Judas fulfilled prophesy. He was made the betrayer. John 13:18 - Psalms 41:9.

    Note that when Jesus referred to Psalm 41:9, He left out the phrase, in whom I trusted. :)
     
  17. utilyan

    utilyan
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    Matthew 26,
    49And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him. 50And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.

    Note the saddest thing about betrayal is it doesn't come from an enemy, but a friend or loved one.

    Its simple, you can't be betrayed unless they were on your side to begin with.

    That's what a TRAITOR is.
     
  18. Revmitchell

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    that's it? that's all you have? Good grief
     
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  19. StefanM

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    It's a weak argument on his part that ignores that all of us owe God ourselves and our loyalties. We were all traitors before Christ saved us, and Judas is no different in the first respect--he was a traitor.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
  20. Revmitchell

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    It also ignores the fact that people are called traitors even when their intent was always bad. The use of the word traitor is not as monolithic as the op is making it out to be. In truth it is grasping at anything for lack of a real argument.
     
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