Bible not perfect

Look, I speak in several tongues. I am fluent in both formal English and Redneck (definitely two different tongues--and I think Redneck is one of the tongue of angels). I am not bad at conversational German (though rusty), and I am somewhat proficient at Koine Greek, although that is technically not a spoken tongue any more. From the evidence in the Bible, I am sure that Saul Paul spoke and wrote Latin, Aramaic, Greek, and Hebrew at the very least--"I speak in tongues more than you all." And, he could apparently preach in all the above languages! And since Saul Paul said "ya'll" (you all) so often (around 30 times in his letters, I'll bet he spoke redneck too!

 

Manor B, there wasn't a lot of conversational Hebrews in those days. Hebrew was used mostly in ceremonial circles, and when reading or quoting the OT. Common conversation for the people of Judea was Aramic. Many Jedaeans also would have known some basic Greek, since the Romans spoke Greek, and many Romans would have spoken a fair amount of Aramaic.

Anyhoo, Paul probably wouldn't have done a lot of public speaking in Hebrew. That would be akin to someone carrying on a conversation in King James English. Passersby would think they were either on the planet Vulcan, or a renaissance faire.

 

1. I was trying to be funny.

2. You mean like in an IFB/KJVO church?

 

I have to wonder if some of my redneck lango rubs off when I speak some of the few words I know in Spanish, Korean, or German. LOL

 

Tam, thanks for your apology and clarifying what you said!

 

That is a very good point. But it does not addres the point I raised. John wrote about miracles and ther things Jesus did so that people migth read adn believe. There is a lot of power inreading the word of God. that's wonderful, and I agree.

What I have not seen is a verse that says that miracles confirm the veracity of certain books of the Bible. That is a different concept from a book of a Bible recording a miracle so that people might believe in Jesus.

I've also pointed out that the effect of seeing a miracle is different from the effect of reading or telling about one. The apostles could have told about Jesus doing miracles. Some people may have believed when they just heard. But the apostles also did miracles themselves. Why did the apostles do miracles, too, if telling about miracles has exactly the same effect?

 

I have a friend with a heart for Jewish evangelism who is a scholar of the Bible and anything Jewish. He went to Jerusalem adn got a Masters in Hebrew translation. He says Hebrew ws in use in Jesus' day. When the Jews went into captivity, it was the rich, the people with skills, and the upper class who went into captivity. The poor stayed behind and still spoke Hebrew. When the rich came back speaking Aramaic, the poor kept speaking Hebrew.

He told me about a reference to a 'rabbi' who was trying to remember a Hebrew word not too far from the time of Christ, so he asked his maid. Think about it. The 'rabbi' from the educated, post captivity class, asking his maid from the 'people of the land' class for a word from her native language- a language he had studied for ceremonial purposes.

Joseph, from the kingly lineage, was from the line that went into captivity. But he lived in the low class area of Galilee. Maybe Jesus spoke up speaking Hebrew. Maybe He grew up speaking Aramaic, or maybe He grew up speaking both and some Greek as well.

 

The works (miracles or signs) that Jesus did attested to His divinity. Jesus showed that He was God by the miracles that He did. "No man can do these things except God be with Him." Nicodemus knew who He was.

The Apostles (and those close to them) were also given the same power, the power to do miracles. The sign of an apostle was that they were able to do signs and wonders. Those signs and wonders attested to their apostleship, and to the fact that their message was from God. It was authentic. This was very important from the Jewish standpoint. For God had told them that He would speak to them in foreign langauges and still they would not believe. It was a fulfillment of prophecy. Not just the tongues then, but the miracles in general were attesting the authenticity of both the Apostle and his message. After the first century these miracles, miraculous sign gifts have ceased.

If they haven't, give evidence that they haven't:
1. Show us a faith healer who can heal all that come to him. Take him to a hospital and let him heal all that are there.

2. Show us the gift of miracles. That is where one person is able to perform supernatural miracles, whether it be healing or provision of financial need, or repairing vehicles without repairman, etc. Show us the miracles, that can be verified.

3. Tongues. Not gibberish, but actual known languages that are translatable. If I go into a country that has over 12 different languages why doesn't God give me or anyone else the gift of tongues to communicate with these people. Some of these people have no Bible in their own language. Their are many Charismatic groups in the area: Full Gospel Assembly, United Pentecostal, Oneness, Apostolic, and others. Why doesn't God give any of those people the gift of languages. Every last one of them speak gibberish--not tongues. I consider that deception and heresy. The poor people over their are just being deceived. If these western people actually had the gift of tongues, then why are they learning the languages. That is just hypocrisy to claim you have tongues and can't speak in them.
Go through the gifts of the Spirit. Remember that each one of them were supernatural in nature in the first century. Give evidence that they are still in operation today. I haven't seen any evidence of any of the gifts in operation today. Surely if they were in operation today, someone within all the millions of Charismatic believers would be able to bring forth evidence. But no. Millions of people are deceived without evidence.

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
DHK

 

I agree with Granny but I would use the word love (agape) as the operative word in 1 Corinthians 13.

1 Corinthians 13 begins and ends with love.

NKJV 1 Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
...
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

In the middle...

8 Love never fails.

Love is that which is "perfect" because without it:

2...but have not love, I am nothing.

NKJV 1 John 4
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

 

**1. Show us a faith healer who can heal all that come to him. Take him to a hospital and let him heal all that are there.**

Even Jesus didnt' always heal everybody (e.g. the pool of Bethsesda. In Nazareth He could not do many mighty works because of their unbelief.) The Bible does teach that all the Corinthians who had the gift of healing did miracles always healed everybody.

I wouldn't expect healers to heal everyone in a hospital in the US. I don't see Paul doing that among Gentile nations. Jesus ministered to Israel, which had healing in their covenant, and still the healing was related to the faith of the people. Paul once saw that one crippled man had faith to be healed and declared that the Lord Jesus healed him. These things often happened, in scripture, in areas where the gospel was first introducted. I don't see in scripture that gifts always worked the way you describe here.

If one person gets healed through the gift of healing, that is evidence.

**2. Show us the gift of miracles. That is where one person is able to perform supernatural miracles, whether it be healing or provision of financial need, or repairing vehicles without repairman, etc. Show us the miracles, that can be verified.**

There are plenty of testimonies from people all over the world who have seen and experienced miracles. It's kind of surprising to me that someone would ask a question like this because I've heard so many testimonies from regular, sincere Christians about miracles they have experienced- including miracles in the Biblical sense. Maybe you are sheltered from these kinds of testimonies because of the circles you limit yoruself, too. but it's still hard to believe you've never read testimonies of miracles from the mission field.

A Biblical method to verify something is the testimony of two or three reliable witnesses. If you want to verify a miracle by Biblical means, it should not be that difficult. You can poke around on the Internet, track the people down, and interview them.

If you want a couple of pointers, one would be to look up some of the healing homes on the Internet. I had a telephone conversation with soemone who had been inthis ministry who had seen a lot of healings. You can track down people who claim to have been healed in an instantaneous miraculous way and interview people who know them. There are plenty of them out there for you to track down. There was a book written about some miracles on the island of Timor in the 60's. I know a man from there who talked with people who witnessed them and wrote about it. I haven't gotten a copy of what he wrote, though. It's in Indonesian.

**3. Tongues. Not gibberish, but actual known languages that are translatable. If I go into a country that has over 12 different languages why doesn't God give me or anyone else the gift of tongues to communicate with these people.**

I believe that real tongues are 'of men or of angels.' I've heard what sound to my ears to be real languages spoken in tongues.

Btw, why would God give you a gift, if you didn't ask IN FAITH? Is that a realistic expectation?

** Some of these people have no Bible in their own language. Their are many Charismatic groups in the area: Full Gospel Assembly, United Pentecostal, Oneness, Apostolic, and others. Why doesn't God give any of those people the gift of languages.**

I don't know why god would suddenly change the nature of the Biblical gift of tongues to meet your criteria. From the Bible, I don't have any reason to think that tongues-speakers understood the languages they were speaking in, even in Acts 2.


** Every last one of them speak gibberish--not tongues. I consider that deception and heresy. The poor people over their are just being deceived. If these western people actually had the gift of tongues, then why are they learning the languages. That is just hypocrisy to claim you have tongues and can't speak in them.
Go through the gifts of the Spirit. Remember that each one of them were supernatural in nature in the first century. Give evidence that they are still in operation today. I haven't seen any evidence of any of the gifts in operation today. Surely if they were in operation today, someone within all the millions of Charismatic believers would be able to bring forth evidence. But no. Millions of people are deceived without evidence. **


You must be very sheltered from a lot of things God is doing in the world. I suppose you think all those Christians in China whose testimonies are compiled into books sold in the west, are just decieved about being healed physically, seeing visions, and other miracles and manifestations of gifts of the Spirit that God has done among them.

So some research in missiology in this area. I heard a statistic recently that a large percentage of Christians in Southeast Asia who have come to Christ from Mslim backgrounds in recent years- over a quarter- have seen Christ in a dream or vision. I heard a testimonty from a man raised ina radical Muslim family who preached in mosques, and ended up rejecting God. Eventually, though, after some people cast a spell on him and he was dying, and he tried so many cures, he took someone's advice and prayed to God in Jesus' name. He saw a vision of Christ and came out of it healed and able to eat again. There are many of people in this country who have testimonies like this. Do you believe all these people are decieved? Do you believe Satan tricks people into becoming Christians?

There are plenty of gifts in operation. I've seen a lot of gifts that do not fit into a Cessationist worldview. I'd have to be a fool not to believe int he gifts. If I told you about my experiences, I don't know that you would accept them, so I think I'll keep my 'pearls' to myself on this one. If you really want to see evidence of gifts of the Spirit, there is so much of it out there. There are plenty of cases where you can find 'two or three witnesses' to testify to miracles. If you would simply believe what the Bible teaches, that God gives gifts to His church, and ask the Lord to see or have some of these gifts in faith, then the Lord may answer. But if Jesus didn't do many mighty works in Nazareth because of their unbelief, you shouldn't expect your attitude of unbelief toward spiritual gifts to be conduscive toward seeing these kinds of spiritual gifts.


**Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children. DHK **

WHat a sad verse. It is sad, indeed, that many people do not know that God still gives gifts to His church, and they miss out on the benefits.

Btw, if you think knowledge has passed away, why would you think this verse still applies today?

 

HankD,

Paul didn't say that love hadn't come yet when he wrote that verse. "that which is perfect" hadn't come yet. Paul wrote to the Romans abut the gift of prophecy among them (ch 12) but told them that the love of God was shed abroad in their hearts.

Would you conclude that Paul had not been perfected in love because he spoke in tongues? Jesus gave a prophetic sign. But He was perfect in love.

 

I found a discussion on a theology forum about cessationism. This is quote from a proponent of cessationism quoting a cessationist author. His conclusion is a little different from mine.

**Let me quote the most important proponent of cessationism, Richard Gaffin:

"The coming of 'the perfect' (v. 10) and the 'then' of the believer's full knowledge (v. 12) no doubt refer to the time of Christ's return. The view that they describe the point at which the New Testament canon is completed cannot be made credible exegetically." (Perspectives on Pentecost, p. 109, emphasis mine)**


Gaffin is a professor of Biblical and Systematic Theology at Westminster Theological Seminary. His experiences include working on a major bible translation editorial committee. I find it likely that he knows Greek. It seems like the cessationists who know Greek know enough to reject DHK's line of reasoning about 'the perfect.' I usually see these kinds of arguments from people who don't know Greek.

 

To get in an argument of "my authority is better than your authority" is fruitless. Dr. Thomas Cassidy used to post here regularly, and knows Greek well. His view was the same as mine. So is Dr. Bob Griffin's. I also can find many others that believe the same way.
When I debate the Catholics, and they quote the early Christian fathers, I couldn't care less. What does the Bible say? It doesn't matter to me what other people's opinions are. What does the Bible teach. In all of this (as I keep pointing out to you) you continue to ignore the context of the passage. The context is revelation. It is not speaking of the resurrection or the Coming of Christ. It is speaking of revelation, that is God's Word in the larger context of Spiritual gifts. To try to insert your own interpretation into that passage when it isn't talking about it is not "rightly dividing the Word of Truth."
The Catholics do the same thing when the say that John 3:5 refers to baptism. Or, when they say that there were infants baptized in the jailor's household. You are reading into Scripure that which isn't there.
DHK

 

Are you suggesting that Jesus did not have the power to heal all that came to him. That is blasphemy, and belief in a powerless god, who is nothing more than an idol. Christ had the power to heal all that came to him, and many times in his ministry did heal all that came to him. No One today has that power.

Matthew 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:

Luke 4:40 Now when the sun was setting, all they that had any sick with divers diseases brought them unto him; and he laid his hands on every one of them, and healed them.
--Jesus could heal. Today's "faith-healers" cannot. (not even through the power of Christ).

Healing was rarely connected with the faith of the people. Read the above verses. Jesus healed all that came to him, irrespective of race, creed, religion, sex, height, etc. It specifically says that he healed all, every one.

Both Christ and the Apostles had the power to heal all that were in a crowd, or all that would come to them. Their healings were not just confined to a person here or there. Look at some examples:

Acts 5:16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.
There was a great multitude here--from the cities all around Jerusalem were the sick brought. And Peter healed them all. No one can do that today. The parallel of doing the same thing today would be to at least go into a hospital and heal all that are there. They didn't have hospitals in those days. So Peter was doing a greater work than a hospital could do.

Acts 8:5-8 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
8 And there was great joy in that city.
--There multitudes that were healed under Philip's ministry, and here they were all Samaritans. They weren't even Jews. They were the people that the Jews despised and hated. A Samaritan was cursed more than a Greek Gentile. But salvation had come to them, along with great miracles, and miracles of healing. No one cannot duplicate such things today.

Luke 10:17-19 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
--Christ gave power, not to just the 12, but to 70 disciples to work miracles among whatever city and house they would enter--not just the Jews, but to the Greeks as well. They came back with astounding reports. Even the demons were subject to them. Christ's response also indicates the enormity of the work that they had accomplished. These 70 indeed had accomplished miracles that people today do not accomplish.

This statement is utter nonsense. We all believe in healing, and no one has denied it. If one person gets healed today it is because of an answer to prayer. The gift of healing ceased long ago, as is evidenced by the above Scriptures. God still heals; but no has the gift of healing. God answers prayer in response to the prayers of His children. But the supernatural gift of healing is not operative today. If it were we would have evidence that it were, such as the apostles did. They could, at times in their ministry, heal all that came to them. If the gift of healing were operative today, that same power would be available, and readily demonstrable to people today. But it isn't. People claim it is, but when challenged for evidence they can't produce it. Thus the only conclusion one can make is that they are fraudulent in their claims. How unfortunate for all the broken hearts that have so often been deceived by these shysters.

Miracles of the Biblical type:
Like when Jesus walked on water, and compelled Peter to do the same,
Like Jesus raising Lazarus from the dead after he had been four days in the grave already.
Like Jesus feeding 5,000 with 5 loaves of bread and two fish.
Like Jesus who calmed the sea,
Like Jesus who turned the water into wine.

You are right. I have never seen these type of miracles. The gift of miracles has ceased. They don't happen any longer. God does answer prayer, sometimes in a rather miraculous manner, we might say. But there is no gift of miracles--no one who has a gift to do miracles on a regular basis. I know of no such person alive today.

I don't need to verify the occaisional answer to prayer. I already know that God does that. I need verification that the GIFT OF HEALING is still operative today. Demonstrate that there is an individual that can perform miracles on a regular basis.
DHK

 

Do you know what the "tongues of angels" are? If you do, you have more knowledge than the rest of us, even than Paul himself. He never defined what they were. He never even said he spoke in them. There is no record of any person ever speaking in the tongues of angels. Only angels speak in the tongues of angels. Man speaks in the tongues of man. That only makes sense doesn't it?

Do you not think, in all the frustration that comes with learning a foreign language, that one does not ask God continually for His assistance in learning the language??

We know what happened in Acts 2. It was an unusual event. Paul said: "I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all." Why did he say this statement? For one, the Corinthians were misusing the gift. But secondly, he had a valid use of the gift of tongues in his missionary journeys, where he would travel to many places where the people's native tongue was not Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. God would give to Paul, in a miraculous manner the language of that group of people to speak it so that they would be able to understand it. Here is how it worked. It was one of two ways.
His thoughts were supernaturally uttered in a language he was not acquainted with. He knew the thoughts that he was saying but the words coming out would have been different. Thus "he was speaking in mysteries," and needed an interpreter. "If there is no interpreter in the church, one had to be silent." Someone in this case had to interpret for Paul.
But the gift of interpretation was also given to some who also had the gift of tongues (which I believe was the case with Paul). So when Paul uttered his thoughts in a foreign language, he undeerstood what he was saying in that foreign language and could translate it back to Greek or Aramaic for any Jews that were present. Either way there had to be an interpreter in the Biblical times for the sake of the Jews.
But nowadays missionaries learn languages. They are not given the language of the people miraculously (like Paul) because the gift has ceased. What people have today is "gibberish," a fake.

I have read many books on missions--biographies, autobiographies, and others. I have read of answers to prayers. I have never read of any accounts of the gifts of the Spirit being in operation today. The claim of people speaking in tongues is a modern day phenomena that started in the beginning of the 20th century, unknown for 1900 years, and therefore part of a cult. It implies that for 1900 years born again believers never had the truth of the Word of God.

And how does this relate to the speaking in tongues or the gifts of the spirit? A person had a dream. He got saved after he called on the name of Christ. And your point is??

Jesus didn't do miracles because he chose not to; not because he could not. He still had the power--He was God. Please do not belittle Christ and imply that He did not have the power to do miracles.
Charismatics do not have the power to do miracles as Christ or his apostles. This we know as a fact. No miracles, such as Christ did, have ever been duplicated in history. There are no faith healers today. There is no evidence that the gifts of the Spirit are in operation today, otherwise the Charismatics would be able to verify it. But they cannot. Bring on the faith healers--bring them to the hospitals and let them heal all the sick. Send the missionaries to the lands where languages have not been translated yet, and teach the people without learning the language. Show us that the gifts are for today. Why can't it be done? It can't be done because the gifts have ceased.
DHK

 

Paul, although he spoke in many tongues (languages) he himself had matured beyond that into the agape of the Father as he urged the Corinthians to do as well.

"Tongues" does not preclude love but without love you are nothing even if you have all other spiritual gifts.

Agape needs nothing else.

That they were carnal is evident and he told them as much.

HankD

 

HankD,

Paul still spoke in tongues, because he wrote "I speak in tongues more than ye all." not "I spoke in tongues back before I was perfected in love."

The idea that being perfect in love rules out the possiblity to prophecy doesn't fit with Paul's instructions encouraging the Corinthians to prophecy.

 

"When I was a child, I spake as a child.I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things".

HankD