Bible of the Early Church

Discussion in 'Bible Versions/Translations' started by Deacon, Dec 26, 2008.

  1. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    Readings from Bible of the Early Church

    And the heaven and the earth were finished and all their arrangement.
    And on the sixth day God finished his works that he had made, and he left off on the seventh day from all his works that he had made.
    And God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it he left off from all his works that God had begun to make.

    Genesis 2:1-3 New English Translation of the Septuagint (2007)


    Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all their multitude.
    And on the seventh day God finished the work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all the work that he had done.
    So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it, because on it God rested from all the work that he had done in creation.

    Genesis 2:1-3 NRSV

    ****************************

    And Adam called the name of his wife Life, because she is the mother of all the living.
    Genesis 3:20 NETS

    The man named his wife Eve, because she was the mother of all living.
    Genesis 3:20 NRSV

    Rob
     
  2. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    My wife bought me “A New English Translation of the Septuagint” for Christmas.
    I’ve been eagerly reading it.

    Genesis 47:31 is interesting.
    There is evidence that the author of Hebrews used the Septuagint as his text (e.g. Hebrews 11:21).

    By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, “bowing in worship over the top of his staff.”
    Hebrews 11:21 NRSV

    Now the days for Israel to die drew near, and he called his son Ioseph and said to him,
    “if I have found favor before you, put your hand under my thigh,
    and you shall bring about mercy and truth for me
    so as not to bury me in Egypt, but I will lie down with my fathers, and you shall carry me
    out of Egypt and bury me in their burial place.”
    And he said, “I will do according to your word.” Then he said, “Swear to me.”
    And he swore to him. And Israel did obeisance upon the top of his staff.
    Genesis 47:29-31 NETSeptuagint


    When the time of Israel’s death drew near, he called his son Joseph and said to him,
    “If I have found favor with you, put your hand under my thigh
    and promise to deal loyally and truly with me.
    Do not bury me in Egypt. When I lie down with my ancestors, carry me out
    of Egypt and bury me in their burial place.”
    He answered, “I will do as you have said.” And he said, “Swear to me”;
    and he swore to him. Then Israel bowed himself on the head of his bed.
    Genesis 47:29-31 NRSV

    Does this tell us anything about using various translations?
    What impications can we deduce concerning God's word?

    Rob
     
  3. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2008
    Messages:
    423
    Likes Received:
    0
    What do you think about the book of Enoch or the book of Jasher?
     
  4. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    Neither were included in this version of the Septuagint

    But I will be reading Esdras, Ioudith, Tobit, Makkabees, The Prayer of Manasses,
    The Wisdom and Psalm of Salomon and Sirach, among others, that were included in some of the early churches Bibles.

    Rob
     
    #4 Deacon, Dec 27, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 27, 2008
  5. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    Exodus - Missing from the Septuagint

    The Greek Septuagint omits Exodus 28:23-28; 36.8-34; 37.10b-15, 17-27, this material is present in the Hebrew Masoretic text [MT] as we know it.
    It was reconstructed in Origen’s Hexaplar.
    It is absent in the Vaticanus and Alexandrinus versions of the Septuagint.

    Exodus - Additions in the Septuagint

    3rd Reigns 2 (known by us as 1 Kings 2) has two long additions after verse 35 (14 verses) and after verse 46 (11 verses).
    At 12:24 the LXX adds 24 verses, and again at 16:28 (8 verses).

    And the Lord gave Salomon discernment and very great wisdom and breadth of mind like the sand which is by the sea, and the discernment of Salomon was greatly multiplied above all ancient sons and above all prudent ones of Egypt.
    And he took the daughter of Pharao and brought her into the city of Dauid until he first finished his house and the house of the Lord and the wall of Ierousalem round about; in seven years he made and finished them And Salomon had seventy thousand bearing a burden and eighty thousand stonecutters in the hill country.

    3 Reigns 2:35a-35c NETS

    Rob
     
  6. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    OT Versional Differences

    Michael Heiser of The Naked Bible blog wrote of this variation recently.

    The story begins in Deuteronomy 27; Moses states:

    So when you have crossed over the Jordan, you shall set up these stones, about which I am commanding you today, on Mount Ebal, and you shall cover them with plaster. And you shall build an altar there to the LORD your God, an altar of stones on which you have not used an iron tool.
    Deuteronomy 27:4-5 NRSV


    Our Bibles places this memorial after the battle of Ai, which is about 30 miles away.

    Then Joshua built on Mount Ebal an altar to the LORD, the God of Israel, just as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded the Israelites, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, “an altar of unhewn stones, on which no iron tool has been used”; and they offered on it burnt offerings to the LORD, and sacrificed offerings of well-being.
    And there, in the presence of the Israelites, Joshua wrote on the stones a copy of the law of Moses, which he had written.
    All Israel, alien as well as citizen, with their elders and officers and their judges, stood on opposite sides of the ark in front of the levitical priests who carried the ark of the covenant of the LORD, half of them in front of Mount Gerizim and half of them in front of Mount Ebal, as Moses the servant of the LORD had commanded at the first, that they should bless the people of Israel.
    And afterward he read all the words of the law, blessings and curses, according to all that is written in the book of the law.
    There was not a word of all that Moses commanded that Joshua did not read before all the assembly of Israel, and the women, and the little ones, and the aliens who resided among them.

    Joshua 8:30-35 NRSV

    Of this section, John Walvoord writes,
    The Septuagint's version places this paragraph in chapter 9 following verse 2, after the report of the battle was spread to the surrounding communities:

    Then Iesous built an alter to the Lord, the God of Israel, on Mount Gaibal, as Moyses the attendant of the Lord had commanded the sons of Israel, as it is written in the law of Moyses, “an altar of whole stones on which iron was not applied,” and he bought up there whole burnt offerings to the Lord and an offering of deliverance.
    And Iesous wrote on the stones Deuteronomion, a law of Moyses, which he wrote in the presence of the sons of Israel.
    And all Israel and their elders and their judges and their scribes passed on one side and on the other side of the ark, opposite, and the priests and the Leuites took up the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and the guest and the native-born. Half of them wee near Mount garixzin and hal f of them wee near Mount Gaibal, as Moyses the attendant of the Lord commanded at first, to bless the people
    And after thses things Ieosous hus read all the words of this law, the blessings and the curses, according to all things written in the law of Moyses.
    There was not a word of all that Moyses commanded Iesous that Iesous did not read in the ears of all the assembly of the sons of Israel, to the men and the women and the children and the guests who attached themselves to Israel.

    Iesous 9:2a-2f NETS

    The Dead Sea Scrolls provides yet another version, in a twist, this same paragraph is placed between 5:1 and 5:2 of Joshua, following the crossing of the Jordan River, just before the observances of circumcision and Passover.

    Basically the same text; but which text placement is right? Why?

    Would you consider the three different texts "Scripture"?

    Rob
     
    #6 Deacon, Dec 28, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 28, 2008
  7. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob
    Expand Collapse
    Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    29,402
    Likes Received:
    12
    Peter Flint is a dear friend and the foremost Dead Sea Scroll scholar in the US. He traces the chronology through the Scrolls (4Q Joshua A and 4Q Joshua B of 100 BC), Samaritan LXX (circa 200 BC), Old Latin and the Masoretic (typical Hebrew text from about 1000 AD) as:

    Moses commands reading of Torah and altar after entering at an undisclosed location.

    This probably was fulfilled by the men taking stones from the Jordan crossing and belongs chronologically at that point. This is supported by the Dead Sea Scrolls.

    The northern tribes and then Samaritans claimed this was on Mt Gerrizim and incorporated it into their LXX texts (Deut 27 and then fulfilled in Joshua).

    By the time of Christ Jewish scribes, in an anti-Samaritan move, changed this to Mt Ebal. Only later was this added into our Masoretic text.

    Interesting.

    When doing some archaeological work in Israel, I had the joy of having a picnic on Mt Gerizim. Studied these passages with a modern (good) Samaritan and think the Dead Sea Scrolls makes the most geographic sense. To think Joshua stops campaigning, moves 20 miles north into hostile territory, does the altar (on Gerizim or Ebal) then heads back south and abandons this altar and land, etc, makes no sense.
     
  8. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    Thanks Dr. Bob, I'd love to get there someday; finances are tight until the kids graduate college though.

    ******************************
    Another passage caught my eye as I was reading through the Scriptures.

    And Saoul was ignorant with great ignorance in that day, and he laid an oath on the people, saying, “Cursed be anyone who eats food before it is evening, so I will avenge my enemy,” and none of the people tasted food.
    1 Reigns 14:24 NETS

    “Ignorant with a great ignorance”; Poor Saul, he only opens his mouth to change his feet.

    The Hebrew text of Samuel is difficult.
    Samuel Driver writes:
    [The Hebrew] will mean had been driven, hard-pressed by the enemy (as 13:6): but it is not apparent how this condition would be relieved by Saul’s measure
    (The rendering of A.V. ‘had adjured’, is contrary to Hebrew grammar.)
    LXX has here a variant, which, at least to Ephraim, seems original, and suits the context.
    Samuel Rolles Driver, Notes on the Hebrew Text and Topography of the Books of Samuel (Oxford: Clarendon press, 1913), 112.

    The differences between versions can be explained by use of alternate texts.
    Here NRSV translators chosen the rendering given in the Septuagint over the Masoretic Text..

    Now Saul committed a very rash act on that day.* He had laid an oath on the troops, saying, “Cursed be anyone who eats food before it is evening and I have been avenged on my enemies.” So none of the troops tasted food.
    *Gk: Heb The Israelites were distressed that day
    1 Samuel 14:24 NRSV

    (Notice the footnote that informs you that the reading was taken from the Greek rather than the Hebrew and also what the Hebrew Masoretic text reads)

    Compare it to the New American Standard Bible and the Authorized Version.

    Now the men of Israel were hard-pressed on that day, for Saul had put the people under oath, saying, “Cursed be the man who eats food before evening, and until I have avenged myself on my enemies.” So none of the people tasted food.
    1 Samuel 14:24 NASB95

    And the men of Israel were distressed that day: for Saul had adjured the people, saying, Cursed be the man that eateth any food until evening, that I may be avenged on mine enemies. So none of the people tasted any food.
    1 Samuel 14:24 AV 1873

    Adjured”, now there’s a word you don’t see every day.
    I had to look it up.

    1 : to command solemnly under or as if under oath or penalty of a curse
    2 : to urge or advise earnestly
    Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary. Eleventh ed. Springfield, Mass 2003.

    Rob
     
    #8 Deacon, Dec 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2008
  9. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    Four Obscure Words and Versional Differences

    I'll do todays study in two posts.

    Part 1
    Obscure Hebrew and Greek words caused translational differences.
    Here are four translation difficulties in the Early Versions compared to the LXX and some modern versions

    Example #1.
    Joshua 11:13


    comaundide to hym, without citees that weren set in the grete hillis, and in litle hillis; and Israel brente the othere citees; flawme wastide oneli o citee, Asor, the strongeste.
    Wycliffe 1395

    But Israel burnt none of the cities that stoode still in their strength, saue Hazor only that Iosuah burnt.
    Bishops Bible 1568

    But as for the cities that stood still in their strength, Israel burned none of them, save Hazor only; that did Joshua burn.
    AV 1873

    But all the walled cities Israel burnt not; but Israel burnt Asor only.
    LXX translated by Charles Brenton (1851)

    But the Israelites did not burn any of the towns built on mounds except Hazor, which Joshua burned.
    NLT

    But all the cities fortified with mounds Israel did not burn, but Iesous burned only Hasor.
    Iesous 11:13 NETS (LXX)


    Comment: Archeologists use the word, “tell” to describe the accumulated mounded rubble of inhabitants.

    According to the Oxford English Dictionary, a tell is: “the Arab name for an artificial hillock or mound, usually one covering the ruins of an ancient city.” The first recorded use of the word in English was in 1864. p 153

    Hebrew = “tell” (transliterated), a mound of ruins, also see Deuteronomy 13:17; Joshua 8:28; 11:13; Jeremiah 30:18; 49:2.

    Greek = Χωματίζω, used only once in the NT and Septuagint

    Conclusion: In this verse of Joshua the LXX got it right.


    Example #2.
    1 Kings 10:28


    And the horsis of Salomon weren led out of Egipt, and of Coa; for the marchauntis of the kyng bouyten of Coa, and brouyten for prijs ordeyned.
    Wycliffe

    And Salomos horses were broughte out of Egipte, and fro Reua: for the kynges marchauntes fetched them from Reua for money.
    Coverdale

    Also Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and fine linnen: the kinges marchauntes receaued the linnen for a price.
    Bishops Bible

    Also Salomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and fine linen: the Kings marchants receiued the linen for a price.
    Geneva

    And Solomon had horses brought out of Egypt, and linen yarn: the king’s merchants received the linen yarn at a price.
    AV 1873

    Solomon’s horses were imported from Egypt and from Cilicia; the king’s traders acquired them from Cilicia at the standard price.
    NLT

    And Salomon’s import of horses was from Egypt and Thekoue, and the king’s traders would receive them from Thekoue by barter.
    NETS (LXX)

    Comment: Solomon purchased horses from Egypt and Cilicia (Hebrew, Keve or Kue)
    Cilicia was a region of present-day Turkey.
    A Survey of Israel’s History By Leon James Wood, David O'Brien p. 246

    Conclusion: Half credit to the LXX, in this verse of 1 Kings the LXX identified the word as a place rather than a thing.

    Rob
     
  10. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    Four Obscure Words and Versional Differences - Part 2

    Part 2
    Obscure Hebrew and Greek words caused translational differences.
    Here are four translation difficulties in the Early Versions compared to the LXX and some modern versions

    Example #3.
    1 Kings 16:33

    and made a groue: so that Achab dyd more to prouoke the God of Israel vnto wrath, then all the kynges yt were before him in Israel.
    Coverdale

    And Ahab made a groue, and proceeded further in angring the Lorde God of Israel then all the kinges of Israel that were before him.
    Bishops

    And Ahab made a grove; and Ahab did more to provoke the LORD God of Israel to anger than all the kings of Israel that were before him.
    AV 1873

    Then he set up an Asherah pole. He did more to provoke the anger of the LORD, the God of Israel, than any of the other kings of Israel before him.
    NLT

    And Achaab made a grove, and Achaab added to do provocations to provoke to anger so that his life might be destroyed; he did more evil than all the kings of Israel who were before him.
    NETS (LXX)

    Comment: The Hebrew literally means made an “Asherah” (a transliteration).
    Archeologists have found that an Asherah was a wooden idol representing a Canaanite goddess.
    Asherah the Name of a Syrian Goddess [LINK]

    Conclusion: The LXX got it wrong, perhaps leading others into difficulties.

    Example #4.
    2 Kings 23:29

    In the daies of hym Farao Nechao, kyng of Egipt, stiede ayens the kyng of Assiriens, to the flood Eufrates; and Josias, kyng of Juda, yede in to metyng of hym, and Josias was slayn in Magedo, whanne he hadde seyn hym.
    Wycliffe

    In his tyme wete Pharao Necho ye kynge of Egipte vp agaynst the kynge of Assyria by the water Euphrates. But kynge Iosias wente agaynst him, and dyed at Megiddo, wha he had sene him.
    Coverdale

    In his days Pharaoh-nechoh king of Egypt went up against the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates: and king Josiah went against him; and he slew him at Megiddo, when he had seen him.
    AV 1873

    In his days Pharaoh Neco king of Egypt went up to the king of Assyria to the river Euphrates. And King Josiah went to meet him, and when Pharaoh Neco saw him he killed him at Megiddo.
    NASB95

    While Josiah was king, Pharaoh Neco, king of Egypt, went to the Euphrates River to help the king of Assyria. King Josiah and his army marched out to fight him, but King Neco killed him when they met at Megiddo.
    NLT


    But in his days Pharao Nechao, king of Egypt, went up against the Assyrians’ king to the river Euphrates. And Iosias went to meet him, but Nechao put him to death in Mageddo when he saw him.
    4 Reigns 23:29 NETS (LXX)

    Comment: The Hebrew is vague, “the king of Egypt ‘went up of’ the king of Assyria” is the literal translation.

    Early translators seem to have followed the lead of the LXX.
    See: Joash, Neco and the King of Assyria
    Floyd Nolen Jones, Chronology of the Old Testament, (2004) p 184


    Conclusion: Toss up, Who's right is conjecture. It's best to footnote this difficulty in the text.

    Rob
     
    #10 Deacon, Dec 29, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2008
  11. jonathan.borland

    jonathan.borland
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2008
    Messages:
    1,154
    Likes Received:
    0
    Does anyone suggest what the two different proto-MT Vorlagen would have been? I can see the MT, but what about that upon which the LXX was based?
     
  12. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    Driver's text provides the best clues Notes on the Hebrew Text and Topography of the Books of Samuel

    "No convincing explanation of how or why this reading was changed to that of MT has yet been offered..."
    Ralph W. Klein, vol. 10, Word Biblical Commentary : 1 Samuel, (2002) 122.

    *********************************
    I’ve been reading though some of the apocryphal books today, not much to comment on.
    I’m eagerly awaiting reading the Psalms.

    One more note concerning the translation of 1 Samuel 13:21 and 1 Kings 10:28.

    "Occasionally, progress has been made through archaeological discovery.
    At 1 Samuel 13:21, for example, we learn that the Israelites, lacking the necessary technology, had to go down to the Philistines in order to have their agricultural implements sharpened. .
    Hebrew text goes on with three words which were impenetrable until this century we-hayetah ha-peṣirah pim, which may be partially translated: 'and the pressing was pim'.
    For more than two thousand years, nobody knew what pim was. The traditional commentators thought of pe, 'edge of sword', whence Tyndale: 'as oft as the edges were blunt'. This, however, is to ignore the second Hebrew word, which has some such sense as 'pressing' and cannot be connected with bluntness.
    The solution came through the discovery in the Holy Land, starting at the beginning of this century, of ancient weight inscribed with the Hebrew letters pym.
    These suggested that the mysterious biblical pim was a weight, or an amount of silver of that weight used as currency. The examples excavated weighed a little under 8 grammes, or two-thirds of a shekel. The 'pressing' would then mean a monetary charge, whence the translation: 'and the charge was one pim'.
    Were it not for chance archaeological discovery, this passage would have remained obscure.

    It is worth adding that the understanding of biblical Hebrew has not always advanced in a straight line.
    Thus at 1 Kings 10:28 and 2 Chronicles 1:16, which describe Solomon's international trade in horses, a Hebrew form miqwe twice occurs.
    This term could be analyzed in two quite different ways: either the mi- could be the preposition 'from', in which case the remaining qwe represents a place name, or else the initial mi- may be an integral part of a common noun.
    The former possibility is attested by the Vulgate (de Coa) and Luther's first edition (von Keva). Tyndale too has a place name: 'And Salomon's horses came out of Egypt from Keva: the merchants fetched them from Keva at a price.
    However, Luther later rejected the place name for the bland allerlei Ware... dieselbe Ware, guessed from the context.
    A.V. likewise banished the place name from the English Bible, preferring a common noun: 'linen yarn'.
    The reason was that nothing was known of any place called Keva or the like.
    Time, however, has vindicated Tyndale's choice.
    The records of the Assyrian emperors of the eighth and ninth centuries BC, discovered in recent times, mention a region called Que, located in Asia Minor and later called Cilicia. The place name has been duly restored in all modern translations."

    On Translating the Old Testament: the Achievement of William Tyndale
    Michael Weitzman University College London (n.d.)


    Rob
     
    #12 Deacon, Dec 30, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 30, 2008
  13. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    The Church in Psalms of the Septuagint

    The Church in the Psalms of the Septuagint

    Compare the New Testament use of ἐκκλησία

    if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church (ἐκκλησία) of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
    1 Timothy 3:15 NRSV

    **********************
    Septuagints use of ἐκκλησία

    I will tell of your name to my kindred;
    In the midst of an assembly (ἐκκλησίας) I will sing a hymn to you:

    Psalm 21:23 NETS (LXX)

    I will tell of your name to my brothers and sisters;
    in the midst of the congregation I will praise you:

    Psalm 22:22 NRSV

    ***********************
    From you comes my commendation in a great assembly (ἐκκλησίᾳ);
    My vows I will pay before those who fear him.

    Psalm 21:26 NETS (LXX)

    From you comes my praise in the great congregation;
    my vows I will pay before those who fear him.

    Psalm 22:25 NRSV

    ***********************
    I hated the assembly (ἐκκλησίαν) of evildoers,
    And with the impious I will not sit
    .
    Psalm 25:5 NETS (LXX)

    I hate the company of evildoers,
    and will not sit with the wicked.
    Psalm 26:5 NRSV

    ***********************
    My foot stood in uprighteousness;
    In assemblies (ἐκκλησίαις) I will bless you, O Lord.

    Psalm 25:12 NETS (LXX)


    My foot stands on level ground;
    in the great congregation I will bless the LORD.

    Psalm 26:12 NRSV

    ***********************
    I will acknowledge you in a large assembly (ἐκκλησίᾳ);
    Among a burdensome people I will praise you.

    Psalm 34:18 NETS (LXX)

    Then I will thank you in the great congregation;
    in the mighty throng I will praise you.

    Psalm 35:18 NRSV

    ***********************
    I told the glad news of righteousness in a great assembly (ἐκκλησίᾳ);
    look, my lips I will not restrain; O Lord, you knew.

    Psalm 39:10 NETS (LXX)

    I have told the glad news of deliverance
    in the great congregation;
    see, I have not restrained my lips,
    as you know, O LORD.

    Psalm 40:9 NRSV

    **********************
    “Bless God in assemblies (ἐκκλησίαις),
    The Lord from Israel’s fountains!”

    Psalm 67:27 NETS (LXX)

    “Bless God in the great congregation,
    the LORD, O you who are of Israel’s fountain!”

    Psalm 68:26 NRSV

    ***********************
    The heavens will acknowledge your wonders, O Lord,
    Indeed, your truth in an assembly (ἐκκλησίᾳ) of holy ones,

    Psalm 88:6 NETS (LXX)


    Let the heavens praise your wonders, O LORD,
    your faithfulness in the assembly of the holy ones.

    Psalm 89:5 NRSV

    ***********************
    Let them exalt him in an assembly (ἐκκλησίᾳ) of people
    and in a session (πρεσβυτέρων) of elders praise him.

    Psalm 88:32 NETS (LXX)

    Let them extol him in the congregation of the people,
    and praise him in the assembly of the elders.

    Psalm 107:32 NRSV

    **********************
    Hallelouia
    Sing to the Lord a new song;
    His praise is in a assembly (ἐκκλησίᾳ) of devout.

    Psalm 149:1 NETS (LXX)

    Praise the LORD!
    Sing to the LORD a new song,
    his praise in the assembly of the faithful.

    Psalm 149:1 NRSV

    ******************************

    How might the use of this word in the Septuagint encouraged the assembly of believers in the early church?

    not neglecting to meet together (ἐκκλησίᾳ), as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
    Hebrews 10:25 NRSV

    Rob
     
    #13 Deacon, Jan 1, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2009
  14. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    You guys have been indulgent for letting me post so much here.
    My vacation will be over in a few days so this thread will end. :applause:
    I'll post just a few more then I’ll have some conclusions, ‘What does it all mean?’

    Psalms in the Septuagint

    Its been recently claimed that there are no added verses in the “modern versions”, only “missing verses”.

    That statment is erroneous!

    Psalm 145 has an extra couplet.

    First, how do we know a verse is missing?

    Answer: The psalm is an acrostic poem, each couplet starts with a letter of the Hebrew alphabet... and it’s missing a letter! The letter “N”.

    Evidence of the added verse is found in the Bible of the early church, the Septuagint.

    (MEM) Your kingdom is a kingdom of all the ages,
    And your dominion is in every generation and generation.
    (NUN) Faithful is the Lord in all his words,
    and devout in all his works
    (SAMECH) The Lord upholds all who are failing
    And sets upright all who are cast down.

    Psalm 144:13-14 NETS (LXX)
    [note the chapter numbering difference]

    The verse is even present in the longest lasting version, Latin Vulgate.

    MEM Regnum tuum regnum omnium sæculorum ;
    et dominatio tua in omni generatione et generationem.
    NUN Fidelis Dominus in omnibus verbis suis,
    et sanctus in omnibus operibus suis.
    SAMECH Allevat Dominus omnes qui corruunt,
    et erigit omnes elisos.
    Psalm 144:13-14 (Biblia Sacra Vulgatæ Editionis Sixti Quinti Pontificis Maximi iussu recognita atque edita) Clementine Vulgate
    (From Jerome’s Translation from the Septuagint)

    But it’s missing from Jerome’s translation from the Hebrew text, Biblia Sacra : Psalmi Iuxta Hebraicum.

    For a long time it was thought that the verse was added into the Greek versions, Hebrew manuscript evidence was scarce.
    But Qaaram’s Dead Sea Scrolls provided support for the ancient missing verse.

    Many modern versions now add these long-missing words.

    Your kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
    and your dominion endures throughout all generations.
    The LORD is faithful in all his words,
    and gracious in all his deeds.

    Psalm 145:13, 13a NRSV

    Rob
     
    #14 Deacon, Jan 2, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 2, 2009
  15. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes Received:
    3
    Its been a blessing, Rob. I, for one, would like to see more from time to time. Please?
     
  16. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    The Early Church Scriptures included:
    (in this order)

    LAW: Genesis, Exodus, Leuitikon, Numbers, Deureronomion

    HISTORIES: Iesous, Judges, Routh, 1,2,3, and 4 Reigns, 1 and 2 Supplements, 1 and 2 Esdras, Esther, Ioudith, Tobit, 1,2,3, and 4,Makkabees

    POETIC BOOKS: Psalms (1-151), Prayer of Manasses, Proverbs, Ecclesiast, Song of Songs, Iob, Wisdom of Salomon, Wisdom of Iesous son of Sirach, Psalms of Salomon,

    PROPHECIES: The Twelve Prophets {Hosee, Amos, Michaias, Ioel, Abdias, Ionas, Naoum, Habbakoum, Sophonias, Haggaios, Zacharias, Malachias}
    Esaias, Ieremias, Barouch, Lamentations, Letter of Ieremias, Iezekiel, Sousanna, Daniel, Bel and the Dragon,

    Today, each of the following groups have a different canon of Scripture

    Protestant
    Ethiopian
    Syriac
    Roman Catholic
    Greek Orthodox
    Hebrew
    Samaritan

    Here’s a handy chart that tells you what is in each tradition's canon.

    What’s in Your Bible [LINK]
    Canon Comparison Chart
    by Barry Setterholm
    Bible Study Magazine Nov-Dec 2008


    ********************************

    Psalm 151
    This Psalm is autographical.
    Regarding Dauid and outside the number

    I was small among my brothers
    and the youngest in the house of my father;
    I would shepherd the sheep of my father.

    My hands made an instrument;
    my fingers tuned a harp.

    And who will report to my lord?
    The Lord himself, it is he who listens.

    It was he who sent his messenger
    and took me from the sheep of my father
    and anointed me with the oil of his anointing.

    My brothers were handsome and tall,
    and the Lord did not take delight in them.

    I went out to meet the allophyle,
    and he cursed me by his idols.

    But I, having drawn the dagger from him,
    I beheaded him
    and removed reproach from Israel's sons.



    Rob
     
  17. EdSutton

    EdSutton
    Expand Collapse
    New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 9, 2006
    Messages:
    8,755
    Likes Received:
    0
    One might mention the three-fold division of the Hebrew Scriptures as mentioned by Jesus (Lk. 24:44) and also when He twice attested to beginning and ending books, the same order they were listed in what is known as the Babylonian Talmud (Mt. 23:35; Lk. 11:51).

    The Hebrew Scriptures are also known as the Tanakh, with three Divisions, as follows.

    I. Torah or The Law (of Moses) (One Section, 5 'Books or Scrolls) (Using common names)

    > 1. Genesis
    > 2. Exodus
    > 3. Leviticus
    > 4. Numbers
    > 5. Deuteronomy

    II. Nevi'im or The Prophets (Two Sections, 8 Books)

    A. Former Prophets - 4 Books

    > 1. Joshua
    > 2. Judges
    > 3. Samuel (I & II Sam.)
    > 4. Kings (I & II Ki.)

    B. Latter Prophets - 4 Books

    > 1. Isaiah
    > 2. Jeremiah
    > 3. Ezekiel
    > 4. The 'Twelve' (The 12 'Minor Prophets', as one book)

    III. Ketuvim
    or 'Writings' or Psalms (Three Sections, 11 Books)

    A. Poetry (Wisdom) - 3 Books

    > 1. Psalms
    > 2. Proverbs
    > 3. Job

    B. The Five Scrolls (Megillot) - 5 Books

    > 1. Song of Songs
    > 2. Ruth
    > 3. Lamentations
    > 4. Ecclesiastes
    > 5. Esther

    C. History (Historical Books) - 3 Books

    > 1. Daniel
    > 2. Ezra (Ezra & Nehemiah)
    > 3. Chronicles (I & && Chron.)

    3 Divisions, 24 books, nice and simple, the order attested to by Jesus. What more could one ask? :thumbs:

    Ed
     
  18. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    Good comment Ed,

    That brings us to the question,
    What Bible did Jesus use?

    What was available?

    Septuagint, or Greek translations of the Hebrew Bible (proto-Septuagint)
    Proto-Masoretic (Masorites themselves were group that worked from the 6th to 10th centuries A.D.)
    Targums, Aramaic paraphrase of the Hebrew Bible

    What evidence do we have?
    1. The Dead Sea Scrolls are from around this time and have readings from all of these groups.

    2. We also have evidence from the gospels, quotes from Jesus.
    Part of the problem here is that these quotes were filtered through time and through the knowledge and familiarity of the texts that the gospel writers were familiar with.

    Here are three texts that support Jesus familiarity with the Greek text of Scriptures.

    He said to them, “Isaiah prophesied rightly about you hypocrites, as it is written,
    ‘This people honors me with their lips,
    but their hearts are far from me;
    in vain do they worship me,
    teaching human precepts as doctrines.’

    Mark 7:6-7 NRSV

    The quote from Isaiah was probably from a Greek Septuagint:

    The Lord said:
    These people draw near me; they honor me with their lips,
    while their heart is far from me
    and in vain do they worship me
    Teaching human precepts and teachings.

    Esaias 29: 13 NETS (LXX)

    ****************************
    and said to him, “Do you hear what these are saying?”
    Jesus said to them, “Yes; have you never read,
    ‘Out of the mouths of infants and nursing babies
    you have prepared praise for yourself’?”

    Matthew 21:16 NRSV

    Out of mouths of infants and nurslings
    You furnished praise for yourself,
    For the sake of your enemies
    To put down enemy and avenger,

    Psalm 8:3 NETS (LXX)

    ***************************

    When John heard in prison what the Messiah was doing, he sent word by his disciples and said to him, “Are you the one who is to come, or are we to wait for another?”
    Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see:
    the blind receive their sight, the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the poor have good news brought to them. And blessed is anyone who takes no offense at me.”

    Matthew 11:2-6 NRSV

    Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened,
    And the ears of the deaf shall hear;
    then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the stammerers shall be clear because water has broken forth in the wilderness and a gull in a thirsty land;

    Esaias 35:5,6 NETS (LXX)

    The dead shall rise, and those who are in the tombs shall be raised,
    and those who are in the earth shall rejoice
    for the dew from you is healing to them
    But the land of the impious shall fall.

    Esias 28:19 NETS (LXX)

    Searching through all the passages Jesus quoted, Craig Evans concludes that Jesus was familiar with many different versions.
    Rob
     
    #18 Deacon, Jan 4, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 4, 2009
  19. franklinmonroe

    franklinmonroe
    Expand Collapse
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2006
    Messages:
    2,872
    Likes Received:
    3
    Sometimes the 24 books of the Tanakh are thought in terms of 22 (by combining a couple of more books, similar to Ezra/Nehemiah). This may account for Josephus' statement that there were 22 books in the Jewish canon. The Hebrew alphabet has 22 characters. Incidentally, 22 + 27 = 49 (which is 7 x 7), as apposed to 66 (six being the figuerative number representing 'man') for those that like that sort of thing.
     
  20. Deacon

    Deacon
    Expand Collapse
    Well-Known Member
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2002
    Messages:
    6,968
    Likes Received:
    128
    Back to work today

    Conclusions:

    1. Septuagint readings were used by the apostles and perhaps even by Jesus; sometimes these passages differed from the Masoretic text that we are familiar with today.

    2. The Septuagint has added passages and missing passages, there are passages that have been placed differently, there are different readings, different meanings, even different books. It varies from the Hebrew text we are familiar with.
    Yet it was the Scripture the early church used.

    3. There are obvious differences in the English versions we use today.
    Unknown, difficult and obscure Hebrew words have always caused translation difficulties.
    Modern scholarship and archeological data can help to increase our knowledge of these difficult words and passages.

    4. The fact that the NT authors, and even Jesus himself quoted Scripture in a variety of ways indicates that despite diverse translational differences, God’s word can be communicated effectively through translation into other languages.

    Add Your Own!

    Rob
     
    #20 Deacon, Jan 5, 2009
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2009

Share This Page

Loading...