Bible Prophecy: Where is this?

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by LadyEagle, Jan 17, 2003.

  1. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle
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    Where do you believe this is & why?

    Is this passage "figurative" or is it "literal?"

    Is this Rome? (Vatican City)

    Is this the literal ancient Babylon (in present day Iraq) rebuilt?

    Is it the U.S.? (Wall Street/Wash. DC)

    Or somewhere else?

    Is there a place you recognize which fits this profile?

    (Posting the entire chapter so it can be read in complete context.)
     
  2. reubdog

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    I think it refers to the revived Roman Empire. linked to Rome. It could also be a rebuilt Babylon, I believe that'll happen - hey maybe we'll bomb sadam and do it ourselves!! either way i take it literal
    reubdog [​IMG]
     
  3. BrianT

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    Rome seems like a good possibility. But all support for the Rome interpretation is from looking at history, there is little (none?) scriptural support for this view. If you go purely on "scripture interprets scripture", I think Jerusalem is the primary candidate.

    Brian
     
  4. reubdog

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    BrianT,
    Jerusalem, huh? intresting, care to explain?
    reuben
     
  5. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    IMO, Revelations Chapter 18 is political. I believe it refers to the downfall of the Roman Empire. I also believe the RCC is the harlot mentioned and the RCC is the false religion that will be supported by the anitchrist during the tribulation. :eek:
     
  6. Bro. James Reed

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    Hey, I am Blessed, so am I. :D

    Try this one on for size. I think, though I can't prove, that the anti-christ will be a pope. How else could he have so many followers? This isn't scriptural, but it seems to be as good as any other guess.

    Think about it. They believe the pope is infallible. Well, what if he said he was Christ? Well, being infallible, in their eyes, he would be telling the truth. What's that make? Instant anti-christ.

    Just my idea. I hope I won't be around to see it.

    God Bless. Bro. James
     
  7. BrianT

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    Take the attributes of Mystery Babylon, and look for that term or description elsewhere in scripture. 9 times out of 10, Jerusalem is the context. Here's a few examples:

    - Babylon is called "the great city" (Rev 16:19, 17:18, 18:10). Jerusalem is called "the great city" (Rev 11:9).
    - Babylon is guilty of the blood of the prophets and saints (Rev 17:5, 18:21, 19:2). Jerusalem is guily of "all" the righteous blood shed on earth, with prophets specifically mentioned (Matt 24:34-39, Luke 11:49-51
    - Babylon is a harlot (Rev 17:5,15, 18:3, etc.) Jerusalem is a harlot (Isa 1:21, Jer 2:20, etc.)
    - Babylon is clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls (Rev 18:16). The outfit for the Jewish priests (the ephod) is made with "fine linen", "purple", "scarlet", "gold" and precious stones (Exo 28).
    - Babylon drinks of the cup of the wrath of God (Rev 16:19). Jerusalem is to drink of the cup of the wrath of God (Isa 51:17).
    - Compare Ezek 16 with Rev 18

    There are a few other such similarities, but I can't find my notes at the moment. [​IMG] But what I did list should give you something to think about. I'm not saying it's conclusive, but I think it's the only view with scriptural support.
     
  8. tyndale1946

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    That's a good one Bro. James... Instant anti-christ... Just add unholy water :eek: ... Brother Glen
     
  9. I Am Blessed 24

    I Am Blessed 24
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    You could be right, but since Rev. 17 is the religious chapter and Rev. 18 is political, it may well be a politician rather than the pope. However...I am pretrib so I won't see it [​IMG] I am looking for the UPPERTAKER not the UNDERTAKER [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    BTW.....do you know how to make 'holy water'? Oh, nevermind.... [​IMG]
    Sue
     
  10. Caretaker

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    For myself I do not believe that Babylon would be Jerusalem:

    [21] And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all.

    [22] And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;

    [23] And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.

    [24] And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

    Zech. 12:
    9: And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    10: And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
    11: In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon.
    12: And the land shall mourn, every family apart; the family of the house of David apart, and their wives apart; the family of the house of Nathan apart, and their wives apart;
    13: The family of the house of Levi apart, and their wives apart; the family of Shimei apart, and their wives apart;
    14: All the families that remain, every family apart, and their wives apart.

    Zech. 14:
    4: And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
    5: And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
    6: And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
    7: But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
    8: And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
    9: And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

    On 9/11, as the smoke billowed out over NY harbor I was reminded of Rev 18. Only conjecture on my part, but what would the appearance be if a series of Nukes were to be exploded in many of our major cities? How would the destruction of the US relate to the world economy?

    May God so bless His precious children, and may we be ever watchful for His return.

    A servant of Christ,
    Drew
     
  11. Dr. Bob

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    Appreciate the good thread. Am reading and thinking through an area I've always taken for granted. God bless all . . . :cool:
     
  12. DeafPosttrib

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    Babylon of Revelation 18 is more than just Rome, Iraq, America, New York City.

    I do believe they have three things are partially correct apply to Babylon: Rome, America, and New York City.

    Babylon is not Jerusalem.

    Babylon is a GREAT city, means very large city. Jerusalem is not big. Jerusalem does not have everything.

    Revelation 18 tells the detials on the political, religion, and economony system.

    New World Order is more likely apply Babylon than Rome, America, and New York City.

    4 years ago, Holy Spirit hits my heart in Rev. 18:21, that the angel will cast a great stone into the sea, and it thrown the great city away. The Holy Spirit shows me the city is New York City.

    It comes true, last Sept 11th, two planes hit two towers of World Trade Center, and both were destroyed. This is just beginning.

    New York City will be destroyed more likely by nuclear bomb.

    We are not distant future away that event will take place- when? We don't know. Only God knows when.

    I will post on Babylon more deep tomorrow Sunday night what itseld being identify? I will discuss more on this tomorrow night.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

    Posttrib/Amill
     
  13. DeafPosttrib

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    Babylon of Revelation 18 is more than just Rome, Iraq, America, New York City.

    I do believe they have three things are partially correct apply to Babylon: Rome, America, and New York City.

    Babylon is not Jerusalem.

    Babylon is a GREAT city, means very large city. Jerusalem is not big. Jerusalem does not have everything.

    Revelation 18 tells the detials on the political, religion, and economony system.

    New World Order is more likely apply Babylon than Rome, America, and New York City.

    4 years ago, Holy Spirit hits my heart in Rev. 18:21, that the angel will cast a great stone into the sea, and it thrown the great city away. The Holy Spirit shows me the city is New York City.

    It comes true, last Sept 11th, two planes hit two towers of World Trade Center, and both were destroyed. This is just beginning.

    New York City will be destroyed more likely by nuclear bomb.

    We are not distant future away that event will take place- when? We don't know. Only God knows when.

    I will post on Babylon more deep tomorrow Sunday night what itseld being identify? I will discuss more on this tomorrow night.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

    Posttrib/Amill
     
  14. reubdog

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    man great suff,
    as far as the pope being the anti-christ. I think there have been an AWFUL lot of protestants who have thought that, I mean even if they were like amill. they were convinced that the pope was the antichrist :D I have always thought the pope we be more fitting to the description of the false prophet. I think the observations about jerusalem could be more than coincedence. I wonder if it is rome and not jerusalem then why is rome judged for the same sins that jerusalem committed and jerusalem will be spared? Maybe b/c of God's covanent with Israel, and that the tribulation jews see Christ as their messiah? What a testimony that would be to God's mercy and justice, the eternal paradox.
    just thoughts
    reub
     
  15. BrianT

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    I think a lot of people get the symbols in Revelation mixed up. Notice that the woman, mystery Babylon, is riding on a beast in Rev 17. Some people say Babylon is Rome, but then they also say the Beast is Rome. That doesn't make sense. But if you consider that when Jesus was crucified, Jerusalem and Rome were closely tied, Jerusalem was "riding" on Roman authority.
     
  16. Steve K.

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    Looks to me like a direct reference to the Roman Catholic church.Hence the blood of the saint.Read Foxes Book Of Martyrs and you will see the Catholics behind the killing of christians.No question about the involvement of the Catholic church in govt.No question about the money she has.I would say direct reference to up-coming destruction of the Roman Catholic Church."ROME"

    [ January 19, 2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Steve K. ]
     
  17. Matthew 16:24

    Matthew 16:24
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    Ahh SheEagle, looking into Bible prophecy are we?
    Nice!!!
    Rev 14:8-AND THERE FOLLOWED ANOTHER ANGEL, SAYING, BABYLON (the Great) IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, THAT GREAT CITY, BECAUSE SHE MADE ALL NATIONS DRINK OF THE (maddening) WINE OF THE WRATH (or passion) OF HER FORNICATION (or adulteries, or immorality) (or God's fury caused by her whoring-JNT94).
    Rev 18:1-AND AFTER THESE THINGS I SAW ANOTHER ANGEL COME DOWN FROM HEAVEN, HAVING GREAT POWER (or authority); AND THE EARTH WAS LIGHTENED (or illuminated) WITH HIS GLORY (or splendor). Some believe this angel could be Jesus; however, the angel is not identified. This angel has great power. As a result of this angel coming down, the earth is illuminated. The exact time that this happens is also unclear.
    Rev 18:2-AND HE CRIED (or shouted) MIGHTILY WITH A STRONG VOICE, SAYING, BABYLON THE GREAT IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN. The word "Babylon" is first used in the Revelation, in 14:8. It is also used in Rev 16:19; 17:5; 18:2,10,21. In Rev 18:10, 21, the term "Babylon" is clearly the city, which we currently call Rome. In Rev 17:5, Babylon represents the "mother of harlots" or the "great whore." The two are shown to be inseparable.
    We can surmise from this, when the term "Babylon is fallen" is used, it is referring to the "great whore." When the term "is fallen" is used the second time, it denotes the city. Thus, it may be said, The great whore is fallen, and the city of Rome is fallen. The second "is fallen" could also represent the Babylon of old.
    Rev 17:18 identifies the WOMAN as THAT GREAT CITY, WHICH REIGNETH OVER THE KINGS OF THE EARTH.
    That GREAT CITY is repeated in Rev 18:10,16,18,19, and 21. The great city is Rome.
    Rev 18:2-AND HE CRIED MIGHTILY WITH A STRONG VOICE, SAYING, BABYLON THE GREAT IS FALLEN, IS FALLEN, AND (she) IS BECOME THE HABITATION (or home) OF DEVILS (or demons), AND THE HOLD (or haunt, or prison) OF EVERY FOUL (or evil, or unclean) SPIRIT, AND A CAGE (or haunt, or prison) OF EVERY UNCLEAN AND HATEFUL (or hated, or detestable) BIRD. The judgment of Babylon (or Rome) is revealed in Rev 18:8. In one hour, she shall be burnt with fire. Following her destruction, Rome becomes the home of devils, and the prison of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. Rev 18:21, shows that the city will not be found anymore.
    Note the words:
    "home" of devils
    "haunt or prison" of every unclean spirit
    "cage, or haunt, or prison" for every unclean and hateful bird
    Rev 18:4-AND I HEARD ANOTHER VOICE FROM HEAVEN, SAYING. This "another voice" covers from v.4-24.
    Only in v.21 is there an interruption.
    This voice said, COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE, THAT YE BE NOT PARTAKERS (or share) OF HER SINS, AND THAT YE RECEIVE NOT (or will not be infected) OF (any of) HER PLAGUES. God's people are being given a commandment, even a very stern warning: come out of Babylon. Then God gives the reason. By remaining in Babylon, they will be a partaker of or share in her sins. By remaining in Rome, the disobedient saints will be destroyed right along with the city of Rome and the Roman Catholic Church.
    Rev 18:5-FOR HER SINS HAVE REACHED (or are a sticky mass piled up JNT95) UNTO HEAVEN, AND GOD HATH REMEMBERED HER INIQUITIES (or crimes). This is not to say that God had ever forgotten her sins, but rather that the time for her judgment, (for the sins of the woman, or Rome) is at hand. God has remembered her blasphemy, her fornication, her sorceries, her self-glory and confidence. God has remembered her persecution and her drunkenness with the blood of the saints. God has remembered that in her was found the blood of saints, prophets, and even apostles.
    Rev 18:6-REWARD (or give back to) HER EVEN AS SHE REWARDED (or rendered to) YOU, AND DOUBLE (or give back) UNTO HER DOUBLE ACCORDING TO HER WORKS (or what she has done): IN THE CUP WHICH SHE HATH FILLED (or use the cup in which she has brewed-JNT96) FILL TO HER DOUBLE (sized drink or double portion). The woman's sins have accumulated over a very long period of time. God will see that she is paid back double for all that she has done. Rome is destroyed.
    Rev 18:7-HOW MUCH SHE (the city) HATH GLORIFIED HERSELF (or glory and luxury she gave herself-NIV), AND LIVED DELICIOUSLY, SO MUCH TORMENT (or torture) AND SORROW (or grief) GIVE HER: FOR SHE SAITH (or boasts) IN HER HEART, I SIT A QUEEN, AND (I) AM NO WIDOW, AND (I) SHALL SEE NO SORROW (or will never mourn). Rome has glorified herself and lived deliciously. Rome says in her heart she will see no sorrow.
    Rev 18:8-THEREFORE SHALL HER PLAGUES COME IN ONE (single) DAY, DEATH, AND MOURNING (sorrow), AND FAMINE; AND SHE SHALL BE UTTERLY BURNED (or consumed) WITH FIRE: FOR STRONG (or mighty) IS THE LORD GOD WHO JUDGETH HER.
    Rev 18:10-IN ONE HOUR IS THY JUDGMENT COME.
    Rev 18:17-IN ONE HOUR…RICHES COME TO NOUGHT.
    Rev 18:19-IN ONE HOUR IS SHE MADE DESOLATE|
    Rev 18:21-WITH VIOLENCE the city is thrown down.
    Several things appear to be different here in comparing the destruction of the city of Rome with the annihilation of the Roman Catholic Church.
    Rome is destroyed in one hour of one day. The length of time for the destruction of the whore is not given.
    Rome's destruction includes death, mourning, famine, and being utterly burned with fire. Regarding the whore's destruction, only being burnt with fire is mentioned.
    Rome's destruction is of the Lord Who judges her-Rev 18:8.
    The destruction of the whore is by the ten kings, to fulfill the will of God. (Note Rev 17:15-17.) (Note Rev 18:2.) The whore’s judgment is of the Lord-ref Rev 19:2.
     
  18. Matthew 16:24

    Matthew 16:24
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    ROME /BABYLON
    Yes-a great city-17:18 /yes
    Yes-full of names of blasphemy-17:3 /yes
    Yes-sits on seven hills or mountains-17:9 /no
    Yes-arrayed in purple and scarlet color-17:4 /unknown
    Yes-decked with gold-17:4 /yes
    Yes-decked with…precious stones-17:4 /yes
    Yes-decked with…pearls-17:4 /unknown
    Yes-having a golden cup-17:4 /unknown
    Yes-full of abominations-17:4 /yes
    Yes-upon her forehead…a name written-17:5 /unknown
    Yes-Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Harlots-17:5 /yes
    Yes-and Abominations of the Earth-17:5 /yes
    Yes-drunken with the blood of the saints-17:6 /yes
    Yes-drunken with the blood of the…martyrs of Jesus-17:6 /no
    Yes-apostles killed there-18:20 /no
    Yes-blood of prophets found there-18:20 /unknown
    Yes-kings have committed fornication with her-18:3,9 /yes
    Yes-kings have lived deliciously-18:9 /yes
    Yes-merchants have grown rich through her-18:3,15 /yes
    Yes-thy merchants were the great men of the earth-18:23 /unknown
    Yes-she had an abundance of delicacies-18:3 /yes
    Yes-great sin-18:4 /yes
    Yes-glorified herself-18:7 /yes
    Yes-lived deliciously-18:7 /yes
    Yes-she saith…I sit a queen, and am no widow-18:7 /perhaps
    Yes-she saith…I...shall see no sorrow-18:7 /perhaps
    Yes-abundance of wealth-18:19 /yes
    Yes-is near the sea-18:17-19 /no

    Note, approaching the end of the Tribulation, the Euphrates will be dried up. It would be impossible for ships to stand afar off and watch her burning.
    Also to be considered, will anything remain of either Iraq or Iran after what may be termed WW III, which happens during the first part of the Tribulation? Ancient Babylon was located in Iraq.

    Yes, every prophecy fits Rome. Yes, every prophecy fits the Roman Catholic Church. No other city in the world fits every single prophecy. In addition, no other city has a worldwide religion that fits every prophecy in these verses and is also integrated into a city that fits every prophecy.
    Several of the prophecies could not fit a rebuilt Babylon in Iraq. In addition, it is written of old Babylon, IT SHALL NEVER BE INHABITED, NEITHER SHALL IT BE DWELT IN FROM GENERATION TO GENERATION...WILD BEASTS OF THE DESERT SHALL LIE THERE; AND THEIR HOUSES SHALL BE FULL OF DOLEFUL CREATURES; AND OWLS SHALL DWELL THERE, AND SATYRS SHALL DANCE THERE-Isa 13:20,21.
    There are some that say this prophecy has never been fulfilled.
     
  19. Alliswell

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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Since the Christians will probably be with Jesus by then, this city will be the home base of a totally pagan religion.

    Post flood idolatry began at Babel in the land of Shinar (modern Iraq) All the mother/child goddess religions are 'offspring' of Ishtar and Bel Marduk (in his infant form, Tammuz.

    Mary,'the Mother of God,' and her son, Jesus are the Roman expression of this cult.

    Revelation 17:1 The harlot is sitting, not only on the beast, but on many waters.

    17:15 "And he said to me, "The waters which you saw, where the horlot sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations and tongues."

    17: 18 "And the woman which you saw is that great city which reigns over the kings of the earth."

    Both Pagan Rome of John's day and the Vatican, in our day, have claimed authority over the spiritual life of the whole world.

    But read Zechariah 5:5-11 and see if it relates to this subject.

    http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?passage=Zechariah+5%3A5-11&NKJV_version=yes&language=english&x=9&y=10
     
  20. postrib

    postrib
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    Note that the Woman Babylon is "that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth" (Revelation 17:18), and is the only one to "buy merchandise" from the merchants of the earth (Revelation 18:11), and contains "the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth" (Revelation 18:24).

    No single city can fulfill all three of these aspects of the Woman Babylon: no single city can be charged with every political, economic, and religious sin throughout history.

    For this reason I believe she can only be a picture of our godless human civilization as a whole, and from its beginning. She rode the 6 empires that existed by John's time (Revelation 17:3, 9-10): Egypt, Babylon, Assyria, Persia, Greece, and Rome. She then rode the back of the Empires of Islam, and will for a time ride the back of the Antichrist's empire (Revelation 17:11), whose 10 kings (Revelation 17:12) will ultimately burn her with fire according to God's will: "These shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire. For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will" (Revelation 17:16-17).

    I believe that the 10 kings will destroy Babylon right before the 2nd coming, in the 7th vial of God's wrath (Revelation 16:19), and that this may be in Satan's mind his own desperate scorched-earth attempt to leave nothing for Jesus to rule when he returns: "O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end: and thou hast destroyed cities; their memorial is perished with them" (Psalm 9:6), "That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof" (Isaiah 14:17); when in fact it will "fulfil God's will" (Revelation 17:16-17) against our godless civilization: "And the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath" (Revelation 16:19); "I have cut off the nations: their towers are desolate; I made their streets waste, that none passeth by: their cities are destroyed" (Zephaniah 3:6).

    I believe it's possible that New York City could be counted as part of the Woman Babylon.

    Note that there is great similarity between the Tyre of Ezekiel 27 and the "Babylon" of Revelation 18:3-19. Isaiah 23:8-9 says ancient Tyre was "the crowning city, whose merchants are princes, whose traffickers are the honourable of the earth" and that the ancient destruction of Tyre served as an example to humble all others like it in the earth: "The LORD of hosts hath purposed it, to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth."

    I believe Jesus said Jerusalem would be held accountable as the example for all the religious sins of all ages (killing of martyrs specifically, Matthew 23:35) because what other city could be called "the crowning city" in religious matters? I believe it's possible that New York City could be held accountable as the example for all the economic sins of all ages, as Tyre was an example to the world in ancient times, for what other city could be called "the crowning city" economically? And Washington D.C. may be held accountable as the example for all the political sins of all ages, for what other city could be called "the crowning city" politically?

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     

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