1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Bible

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by CompassionFlower, May 24, 2003.

Top Posters
  1. CompassionFlower

    CompassionFlower New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Dear Friends:

    I am a wondering why some bibles have Matthew 17:21 in them and others do not.

    King James Version

    However, this kind does not go our except by prayer and fasting.

    Why is this scripture not in all bibles?


    Appreciate your thoughts,

    Pam
     
    #1 CompassionFlower, May 24, 2003
  2. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    30,285
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Reason it is not in some English translations? It is not in some Greek texts! Therefore it is NOT "scripture" and should not be in the Bible.

    The verse IS in the Eastern Orthodox family of texts that underly the AV1611, so the verse will be in English translations based primarily on that family of Greek documents.

    The verse is NOT in the Western Orthodox or Middle Eastern family of texts that underly some other English translations. Some of those may include it in [parenthesis] to show it is added and not in the original.

    Bottom line: The Greek documents DO affect the English translations. Most of the blame, imho, goes NOT to some evil conspiracy of the Romans or Egyptians to "take away" verses or words, but by the overzealous Byzantines who "added" verses and words (often from writings of the church fathers) to help defend the diety of Christ that was under attack.

    I personally wouldn't let it bother you. Read the verses in the best English translations and be blessed. You can pile up all the differences and they will not amount to any real doctrinal issue.
     
    #2 Dr. Bob, May 24, 2003
  3. Haruo

    Haruo New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2003
    Messages:
    500
    Likes Received:
    0
    Basically I agree with Dr. Bob on this one, though I would suggest that in this case the "motive" for the addition was probably the parallel account in Mark (9:29). In other words a scribe, copying the Matthaean text, thought (thinking of the Marcan text) "wait a minute, there's something missing here. doesn't it go 'this kind won't vamoose without prayer and fasting'? yeah, i'm sure that's it" and went ahead and "corrected" the story to agree with what he remembered. (There's no particular Christological apologetic motive in this case, in other words.) Interestingly, the "Western" text of the Marcan version says "by prayer", omitting "and fasting".

    Haruo
     
    #3 Haruo, May 24, 2003
  4. CompassionFlower

    CompassionFlower New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2003
    Messages:
    48
    Likes Received:
    0
    Thank you Dr. Bob;

    Someone was using it to prove that praying and fasting go hand in hand. That fasting can be of benefit in praying. Fasting is an important element of intercession.

    Just trying to make sure by looking in the Bible.

    Sincerely, Pam
     
    #4 CompassionFlower, May 24, 2003
  5. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    This verse was found in many MSS because modern versions omitted it. Why? You remember the story of Jesus. He was fasting for 40 days during the Satan tempted Him. Why is the fasting so important? If so, the KJV is correct and modern versions are incorrect.
     
    #5 Askjo, May 25, 2003
  6. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    Reason it is not in some English translations? It is not in some Greek texts! Therefore it is NOT "scripture" and should not be in the Bible.

    Not true! The KJV has Matthew 17:12 and the KJV is correct because this verse was found in MSS: Aleph-2, c, d, e, f, g, h, k, l, m, o, s, u, v, w, x, y, Gamma Delta PI phi, Omega, fam. 1,13, old latin, (a), aur.(b), (c), d, f, ff2, g1, 1 (n), q, r1,2 Vulg., peshitta, harc, ba-pt, mae, Arm., Eth-ppl, in 047, 055, 0211.

    Guess how many MSS supporting modern versions OMITTED this verse?

    If Jesus was fasting for 40 days, should Matthew 17:21 be omitted? If Jesus was not fasting, should Matthew 17:21 be added?

    The doctrine of the fasting according to the Scriptures is so important. If this doctrine is not important, why was Jesus fasting according to the scriptures?
     
    #6 Askjo, May 25, 2003
  7. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
     
    #7 Askjo, May 25, 2003
  8. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    You go ahead and read my comments to Dr. Bob Griffin and Haruo concerning the manuscript evidences. I hope manuscript evidences will help you understand better. [​IMG] :D
     
    #8 Askjo, May 25, 2003
  9. neal4christ

    neal4christ New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2002
    Messages:
    1,815
    Likes Received:
    0
    You don't have to have Matt. 17:21 to show this. You have Jesus' example. Also, off the top of my head, you could use Daniel 9:3.

    "Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes." Dan. 9:3, ESV

    Daniel thought it was important. I am sure there are many other examples that I don't recall right now. It is late. [​IMG]

    Neal
     
    #9 neal4christ, May 25, 2003
  10. Psalm145 3

    Psalm145 3 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2001
    Messages:
    317
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hello Pam,
    Here is a link to an excellent article on the Biblical doctrine of fasting. {Rule violation deleted}

    Click here: BIBLICAL FASTING

    I hope this helps clear up your question. {Rule violation deleted} I pray that God will give you more light. God bless!

    Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    [ May 26, 2003, 08:42 PM: Message edited by: TomVols ]
     
    #10 Psalm145 3, May 25, 2003
  11. Askjo

    Askjo New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2003
    Messages:
    3,736
    Likes Received:
    0
    Amen to that!
    [​IMG] :D [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
    #11 Askjo, May 25, 2003
  12. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    30,285
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And that kind of sweet Christian talk will get a person banned off of the BB very quickly.

    And Askjo, "Amen" to it will as well.

    This will not be tolerated. To say someone that does not agree with you is a liar, deceived or ignorant is the height of arrogance.
     
    #12 Dr. Bob, May 26, 2003
  13. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2000
    Messages:
    30,285
    Likes Received:
    507
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Short lesson on why a number of manuscripts have included a phrase on fasting in the case in point while others omit it. (This is heading toward the "Bible Versions Forum" if it gets much deeper.)

    Eastern Orthodox churches spoke greek. Made hundreds and thousands of copies of greek NT. Even the staunchest will admit errors crept in. But since the Byzantine Empire lasted until 1500 there is a large weight of documents of the NT. All copies of copies of copies of the same.

    Western Orthodox churches as well as those in Israel/Egypt, shifted to Latin. Greek documents were put aside in libraries and stored in monasteries. Latin was key. So there are relative few greek documents of the NT.

    The Western group, however, is much much older and closer to the original, without additions (like the transposing of Mark's account into Mathhew's account in the case at hand).

    Fasting is good, taught in the Bible. If you want the full teaching, put together all of the Gospel accounts. Some Gospels cut down messages while others expand them. Using a good harmony of the Gospels (like A.T. Robertson's) will help you see the total picture.

    Hope this helps to see the issue.
     
    #13 Dr. Bob, May 26, 2003
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...