Biblical Assertion

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jan 20, 2016.

  1. Van

    Van
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    "God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil."

    Here we have a statement that challenges the validity of the doctrine of total spiritual inability. Thus each and every 5 point supporter of the TULIP will say the assertion is bogus or does not mean what it seems to say.

    One of the verses cited to support the assertion is Deuteronomy 30:19 which says God sets before us the choice of life or death. This is contrary to the doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability, which says we will only choose death.

    Now this choice was set before us after the Fall, and therefore our being predisposed to sin did not preclude the possibility of choosing life. Therefore the actual biblical doctrine should be “Limited Spiritual Ability” of the unregenerate lost.

    Humankind has three enemies, Satan, the World –with its corrupt values, and our fleshly desires. All three at one time or another set before us choices where we usually choose sin. But, according to James 1:14 we are tempted, not compelled, and therefore have some ability to choose not to sin. But even if we do choose according to God’s will, this does not result in “good works” for all our works of righteousness prior to salvation are as filthy rags. Nothing we do earns our salvation.
     
  2. agedman

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    Van, why didn't you post this in the other forum for that discussion?

    Besides, I have yet to read support that the heathen innately having total spiritual ability, without the direct and purposed work of the Word bringing conviction and illumination except by the most deniers of Scriptures usually found among the extreme fringes of the Arminian view.

    For even the basic Arminian view holds to some limit on spiritual ability before the Word is preached.

    James was written for BELIEVERS, not the heathen unbelievers.
     
  3. Van

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    No one said the lost have total spiritual ability. Why not address the view expressed in the OP rather than a strawman to sidetrack discussion.

    Why refer to those who disagree with you as deniers of scripture, which is a smear rather than a reasoned response.

    Scripture presents truths, and those that seek to nullify those truths are the true deniers of scripture.

    The fields are white with harvest, rather than folks supposed to be unable to trust in Christ.
     
  4. agedman

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    Let me readdress the points to clear up what seems to be misunderstood.

    First, there is no half was spiritual ability. One either has spiritual ability or does not. It was not a "straw man" to suggest that you should prove that heathen innately have "total spiritual ability, without the direct and purposed work of the Word bringing conviction and illumination."

    Either one is and has possession of such ability or one does not.

    Second, there is no agreement with those who deny Scriptures. Those of the far fringes of Arminianism which broaden into Pelagianism, mock the Scripture truth. But you already new this and may be marking out an area of disagreement where not any may exist.

    There was no "smear" rather an acknowledgement that there are those who do place such an innate ability in heathen unregenerate.

    There is no agreement with Scriptures that innate ability of total spiritual ability resides in every human without the purposed and direct work of the Holy Spirit using the Word of God.

    Remember the parable of the seed and sower? Only ONE grew to maturity and harvest, all others, though effected by the Scriptures (seed) were failures of crop.

    For that parable to be applicable to a scheme in which the heathen human has some innate ability would be like the soil being able to determine what use it would be, what nutrients it would nourish itself, what manner of cultivation it would choose to undergo, and who would be allowed to tread over it.
     
  5. Van

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    Note the assertion that spiritual ability cannot be limited. Any verse offered to support this nonsense? Nope.
    Paul teaches that the lost can understand spiritual milk but not spiritual meat.

    Next, the strawman argument is repeated, ignoring the scriptural truth of limited spiritual ability.

    Only one soil, the first, had total spiritual inability, the other three had limited spiritual ability.
     
    #5 Van, Jan 20, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2016
  6. Rippon

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    Van, you have a limited understanding of Scripture.

    Paul certainly does not claim that the lost can understand spiritual milk. Young believers should be on that diet initially --not more mature Christians.

    The "dead in sin" seem to be more than just "limited" in their spiritual awareness. ;-)
     
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  7. SovereignGrace

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    So when we die, are we dead with limits or entirely dead?
     
  8. Van

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    More assertions devoid of any support in scripture. Note the denial that Paul spoke to new born Christians as men of flesh. No answer will be offered. God sets before us the choice of life or death, not death only due to "total spiritual inability." Again, no answer will be offered.
     
  9. SovereignGrace

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    Again, when you die physically, do you have limited ability to come back to life?

    The same applies to the souls of unregenerate sinners. Do they have an limited ability to will themselves to spiritual life?
     
  10. SovereignGrace

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    From Deut. 30...

    1) When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the LORD your God disperses you among the nations,

    6) The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

    14) No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.(see Rom. 10:8)

    20) and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.


    Bro. Van, the spiritually dead are just that, dead. They are dead in transgressions and sins(Eph. 2:1). But is was God who "made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved."[Eph. 2:5] So, when we were dead in these transgressions and sins, it was God, not us, who made us alive. We could not choose to live in the manner of spiritual life. Let's go to Isaiah 55 for me to show you what I am trying to convey unto you...

    “Come, all you who are thirsty, come to the waters; and you who have no money, come, buy and eat! Come, buy wine and milk without money and without cost. Why spend money on what is not bread, and your labor on what does not satisfy? Listen, listen to me, and eat what is good, and you will delight in the richest of fare. Give ear and come to me; listen, that you may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.[vss 1-3]

    Now let us go to John 5....

    “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live".[vss 24,25]

    Now, it is those who hear that live. However, it is much deeper than than, mon ami. It takes more than hearing with those ear that are on the sides of our head, but with the ears of the heart...the inner man. The heart of the unregenerate is sin-hardened, sin-crusted, and is unable to hear. It takes a heart transplant, am heart exchange that only God can do. He takes out the stony heart and puts in a heart a flesh, a heart of love, and a new spirit that lives for Him.[Eze. 11:19 & 36:26]
     
    #10 SovereignGrace, Jan 21, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2016
  11. SovereignGrace

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    In John 11, Jesus comes to Lazarus' tomb and calls him forth. It was only the voice of God(Christ in human form) that could elicit a response. Mary, Martha, and any others there could have screamed until this day, after the stone had been rolled out of the way, and Lazarus would have still been there. Yet, God's voice is so powerful, that even the dead, both physically and spiritually, hear His voice. Tie that into Isaiah 55 and John 5. Then go back to Deut. 30:19 and use that same thought. Those who chose life, are those who chose to obey God's command. Why? God had already wrought His work upon their sin-deadened heart and they now chose to obey Him and His word/commands.
     
  12. Martin Marprelate

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    I think it might be as well to have the whole 1689 Confession chapter on 'Free Will' before us when someone accuses the authors of being Arminian.

    God has indued the will of man, by nature, with liberty and the power to choose and to act upon his choice. This free will is neither forced, nor destined by any necessity of nature to do good or evil.
    [Matt. 17:12; James 1:14; Deut. 30:19]

    Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but he was unstable, so that he might fall from this condition.

    [Eccl. 7:29; Gen. 3:6]

    Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability of will to perform any of the spiritual good which accompanies salvation. As a natural man, he is altogether averse to spiritual good, and dead in sin. He is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself for conversion.

    [Rom. 6:16; John 8:31; Eph. 2:1; 2 Cor. 3:14; 4:3-4; John 3:3, 5; Rom. 7:18; 8:7; 1 Cor. 2:14; Matt. 7:17-18; 12:33-37; Luke 6:43-45; John 6:44; Jer. 13:23; John 5:40; 6:37, 39, 40, 44-5, 65; Acts 7:51; Rom. 3:10-12; James 1:18; Rom. 9:16-18; John 1:12-13; Acts 11:18; Phil. 1:29; Eph. 2:8-9]

    When God converts a sinner, and translates him into a state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage to sin, and by grace alone He enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good
    [1]. But because of his remaining corruptions he does not only (or perfectly) will that which is good, but also wills that which is evil [2].
    [1] Col.1:13; John 8:36; Phil. 2:13. [2] Rom. 7:14-25; Gal. 5:17.

    The will of man will only be made perfectly and immutably free to will good alone in the state of glory.

    [Eph. 4:13; Heb. 12:23]

    Note particularly the third paragraph which I have put into bold type.
     
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  13. Van

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    I see several efforts to "define" being "dead in our sins" as being without spiritual ability. Again, no scripture supports this perversion. When we are united with Christ, we are made alive. Therefore when we are separated from God we are "dead" spiritually. And being "dead" means we are unable to save ourselves. But it does not mean we cannot respond affirmatively to the gospel, as demonstrated in Matthew 13.
     
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  14. Martin Marprelate

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    You have been given bucket-loads of Scripture time after time on thread after thread. It becomes wearisome to repeat the same texts again and again, knowing that you're not paying any attention.
    If we can respond affirmatively to the Gospel, then we are not dead QED. You mention Matt. 12, and I suppose you are thinking of verse 23: 'But he who received the seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it........' Now on the basis of comparing Scripture with Scripture, consider John 8:43. "Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word." It is exactly as the 1689 Confession states:

    Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has completely lost all ability of will to perform any of the spiritual good which accompanies salvation. As a natural man, he is altogether averse to spiritual good, and dead in sin. He is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself for conversion.

    It is not a physical inability, it is an inability of will, but it is an inability nonetheless. 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Cor. 2:14). Unless God gives a sinner a new heart and a new spirit (Ezek. 36:26), he cannot and will not respond to the Gospel.
     
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  15. Van

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    It depends on how you define the meaning of "spiritually dead." I defined it based on scripture.

    Yes, these could not hear the gospel, for they were of the first soil of Matthew 13. This verse cannot be applied to all fallen men because Matthew 13 teaches it only applies to some men.

    Post #13 addressed the rest of your post. The natural fallen person cannot receive the spiritual things (spiritual meat) but can receive spiritual milk, just as Paul taught.

    The issue is not that men can convert themselves, they cannot. The issue is not that men can do good works, all their works are as filthy rags. No need to throw up strawmen.

    Scripture is clear, some fallen people do respond to the gospel, otherwise the field would not be white for harvest.
     
  16. Martin Marprelate

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    What Paul taught is this: 'But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned' (1 Cor. 2:14). Now, is spiritual milk one of the things of the Spirit of God? Yes or no?

    Of course fallen people respond to the Gospel! Otherwise no one could ever be saved. And of course the fields are white unto harvest; there will be a vast crowd that no man can number standing before the throne at the Last day and we have to bring them in. But they will only come as God opens their hearts to receive the Gospel. 'Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul' (Acts 16:14). 'No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him' (John 6:44).
     
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  17. agedman

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    What Scriptures, Van?

    I don't see a single Scripture offered until you finally get down to mentioning Matthew 13, and then you offer this:

    I would suggest that all but one of the soils was not prepared, and therefore, incapable of the seed doing more than either laying their for the birds to feed upon, or some modification that had no lasting impact to the soil. At no time was any soil changed or was their any benefit given, because those areas had no ability. ONLY the soil that was prepared and had proper nourishment was able to bear the seed unto harvest. ONLY that soil had ability. The others did not.

    Therefore, your using of Matthew 13 does not support your claim of some innate ability of the heathen unregenerate.

    You have already been corrected about your error in this matter. Repeating the error places you as obstinate and non-compliant to the Scriptures.

    CERTAINLY fallen people respond to the gospel. But that IS NOT what you present in the OP! Nor in subsequent posts. :(

    What you present is that fallen men of their own innate ability with no impulse from the Word or the work of the Holy Spirit can by their own fleshly nature respond in some way to be saved. Even the shallow ground did not accomplish that which you desire. There was no lasting life in the soil to nourish the seed.

    I recall the little fourth grade science lesson in which a seed and a couple spoons of water are placed in a plastic zip lock bag. The seed of its own strength sprouts, but there is no life in the "soil." It is the same with the shallow ground.

    Paul states that some people repent and it is a worldly repentance of the sort found in people who perish. The are sorry they got caught and are not facing the consequences in which they once tried to avoid. Such are those that embrace darkness for they do not want the evil of their deeds to be exposed. They may be either the rock or the shallow soil, but there is no life in them at any time.

    Believers express Godly repentance and resolve. Being ashamed at the shame they brought to not only their own testimony, but the stain upon the assembly and the Christ, that believer clings to the promise that God will forgive and cleanse. They are such as are born from above, and the life in them takes the seed, joyfully receives the seed, and the seed is nourished by that new life from above growing to harvest.
     
  18. Rippon

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    What sort of sentence structure is that? You're not making any sense.

    The way you've worded your sentence means :If no one responds to the Gospel the fields would not be ripe for harvesting.But the passage means that souls are ripe for the picking. It has no implication that anyone has some innate ability to respond to the Gospel.
     
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  19. Rippon

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    Van can't possibly gain any traction in his pathetic Bible versions threads --so he has decided to spread his fertilizer here.
     
  20. agedman

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    I agree.

    Who made the field white for harvest?

    Sure, the dirt did. :(

    Silly me, I forgot all about the farmer, the tiller of the soil, the one who places the nutrients in the soil, the one who makes certain there is proper moisture in the soil, the one who applies pest and weed repellent so the new plants are not over taken and destroyed, and the one who organizes the laborers that the harvest may take place.

    But, it would seem that in Van's scheme, all that can be determined by ........ innate human freedom of the will that can be found in every heathen.
     

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