Biblical certificate - counseling

I do. How can a person counsel someone effectively unless they know God and his word? They can't. The best counselor is someone who is trained in theology.

Not me. I look for theology.

Actually, I think it stems from the work of the Spirit. We must distinguish between bad change and good change. Not all change is good. The goal is Christlikeness, not the alleviation of symptoms. Too many counselors want to make people feel better and alleviate the symptoms. They don't get to the real issues, often because they do not have enough theology to know what they are.

By your standard, Jonah would have been a success and Isaiah and Jeremiah failures. I don't buy that standard.

I don't know how Hebrews 13:7 says anything about that. It is talking about the lives of spiritual leaders, which grows out of their faith, or their theology ... what they believe. That backs up my point that what someone believes is most important. We are to imitate, not their way of life, but their faith.

I agree

Yes, but it starts with theology. Someone with bad theology about man, sin, and change might produce outward results, but there will be no true fruit.

I am not sure what you are asking here. I don't know much about Talbot. As for dispensationalism as a whole (not what individual dispensationalists believe), it is able to best handle the whole of Scripture but I don't think that is really relevant here.

How would you know? How many pastors do you know about enough to know their study habits? You might be right, but I don't think your "findings" are based in a wide enough knowledge to mean anything.

 

GB, I did look at Wright's bio and it gave me bad vibes. First of all, he is a licensed Marriage and Family Counselor, which indicates that he has been at least exposed, if not embraced, the standard pabulum on M & FC. The perspective of this group is not to keep marriages together but to work for a peaceful and mutually satisfactory resolution. This, btw, is diametrically opposed to a Jay Adam's approach, which views marriage as a life-long commitment and covenant of companionship. Obviously, one's view of marriage dictates his counseling approach here. (I wonder if Wright is directive or non-directive?)

Second of all, he seems expert in an area adjacent to my own interest--his are grief and bereavement and mine are death and dying (thanatology). Here, it appears that Mr. Wright takes the standard posture of stroking. It's more about how you feel and making you feel better. Nothing is wrong with feelings but the emotional factor is usually superficial and doesn't address the basic problem. IMHO, this engenders lots of subsequent problems. This is feel better psychology.

The thing about Adams is his premise that your theology determines your counseling approach. He is right. Also, he presupposes that Scripture has the answer to life's questions and problems. Again, agreed.

In comparing Adams and Wright, we find Adams' approach may be summarized as finding and doing God's will in a situation whereas Wright is more about producing agreeable emotions and feeling better. Thus, my opinion is that Wright and others are shallow and without substantial content.

Well, what do you think? Am I wrong in my summaries?

 

If by being trained in theology you mean one who does exegesis and practices theology as a result of the exegesis then I agree. If that kind of training were in done in what we call theological schools then we would have no shortage of Christians making disciples across this nation. The problem I see is that so much of what is called theology is really exegesis.

The problem also I see is that most pastors are not trained in areas of ministry that counselors are.

For example I took some counseling courses in seminary but I was not very well prepared for some things that those who are in counseling are. In the classes I actually learned a lot of theology that was not taught in theology or exegesis classes. I learned a lot about the application of scripture to counseling and helping people. Often the professor started a class by asking us about what we would do in certain cases. He took passages and showed what Jesus did. For example he asked one time what we would do if someone asked us how to have eternal life and then after several responses he showed us what Jesus did. I had never heard that from anyone in theology or evangelism. My classes in counseling did more good in that aspect than the theology classes did.

I believe what is typically called theology focuses on exegesis and does little to travel into the theology domain.

When was the last time anyone asked you about anything other than what the Bible says, in essence being exegesis. I find that when I talk about theology it goes into the practical application of exegesis and that is when people begin to get uneasy.

I agree 100%. The only thing I might add is that which stems from the Spirit is int her form of gifts to the church. Not all theologians and pastors have the gifts necessary to deal with some matters that people get into.

For example years ago a lady called me a few times and discussed a few things with me each time. Finally I thought about our discussions and then I asked her if her husband was abusing her. She was surprised. When I talked with him I told him exactly what he needed to do in rather straight words that he could not miss. As far as prescribing a course of action was concerned I was not very well equipped to help them very well. So I sent them to a counselor I knew well that I felt was a godly person and equipped to help them.

That would depend on where your focus is--God or the world.

 

Hodgepodge of psychobabble..........

They are an affiliate of AACC. I really don't think very highly of them. They presuppose quality is somehow connected to celebs--they have a lot of big names in "Christian psychology." The problem is that there is on unity, no consenus, in their approach to psychology or counseling. They come from all different schools of thought and approaches, many of them contraditory. Some are very questionable such as Jantz with a Ph.D. from Columbia Pacific.

When they say "biblical counseling," what do they mean? They don't even believe the same things. Their approaches, methods, and viewpoints are different. They may be Christian men and women but that doesn't make their practice of psychology or counseling "biblical." Their backgrounds and approaches to counseling lays a grid through which they view Scripture. Seems to me that we have the cart in front of the horse.

In a word--NO--I don't recommend them. Other than name recognition, what do they offer? It's fluff.

Read Jay Adams or Wayne Mack if you want someone more readable. Have you read Adam's Competent to Counsel? It'll give you a perspective to guide you in knowing what you want.

 

If just looking at the Bible were the solution to every problem we would never be told to pray in times of trials. When I look at spiritual gifts I do not see everyone getting an equal dose of all the gifts. Not everyone has the same amount of wisdom or focus in every area. If they did then all would be teachers, etc.

Years ago I had a problem and wondered what was wrong with me and asked myself why I was having such a problem and even told my wife that felt like I was going crazy. As I always did every year I saw the doctor for a physical and when the results came back it explained why I was feeling the way I did. I changed my diet and what an amazing difference it made. I felt like a new person. Looking back I do not see that it had anything to do with spiritual things but it was physical. A good counselor will require a physical examine to rule out any physical problems first. How many theology books deal with those kind of issues? All of us know the body wears out but how many of us are doctors and know how to deal with those issues.

 

Biblical counseling is based on Scripture.

GB, I think you are making a major point out of a minor point. Only the most ignorant counselor would overlook the physical aspect. He would question about diet, sleep, etc. as well as recommend a phyiscal examination by a doctor. Saying that Biblical counseling is grounded in Scripture does not mean that one ignores other obvious aspects. Some doctors, such as Dr. James Halla, use Biblical counseling as part of their treatment in dealing with pain management. Dr. Hall is a rheumatologist who is also a Biblical counselor trained under Jay Adams.

 

My mother is taking this course work, and she throughly enjoys it. It has both good and bad aspects, but so does any theological seminary. What is your objective upon completetion?

 

I agree with you. However I find some pastors I have met who seem to think so simply that they fail to know what they do not know and cause people trouble in their approach. I personally believe that anything in ministry requires more than just an intellectual knowledge of scripture and having soiund theology but also wisdom in applying it. God has gifted people differently with different amounts of wisdom in different areas and they see different things than those who are not gifted in an area. That is the reason why I want to look at the results of one's life and work rather than just their answers to questions about the Bible. When I interviewed with churches to be their pastor I was never once asked about making disciples. I think that says a lot about the focus of a church in what they are looking for and what they expect. When we search out people to help us we need to not only look at their theology but also the results of their ministry and work.

 

Ahhhhhhhhhh.................

GB, you are saying some things that initimate what the Bible calls "wisdom." Most Christians, I fear, do not understand the Biblical view of "wisdom," which is skill in living life well according to eastern thought. As conservators of the Western intellectual tradition, essentially Greek linear thinking, we emphasize the linear doctinal aspects to the neglect of the non-linear Eastern thought, "wisdom."

One of my passions for the past 2-2 1/2 years has been Proverbs. I have now only begun to understand the flow of the book and realize that most Christians, even Biblical commentators, have missed the meaning, beauty, and unity of the book. The problem is that we try to force our Western grid upon Eastern thought. It doesn't work. Of course, Jesus, the one greater than Solomon, stands directly in the tradition of the OT wisdom teachers. This past weekend, my eyes were opened wide to Colossians having the same elements and dovetailing beautifully with OT wisdom thought.

Disciple-making is a part of "wisdom" teaching. Too often, we teach only doctrine as an intellectual exercise. The ditch on the other side of the road is the seeking of emotional experiences. We are only too familar with the Charismatic and associated phenomena. Some are returning to ritual and ceremony and others to a "deeper life" experience much like Keswick. The road lies between the two ditches. "Wisdom" is, IMHO, the neglected aspect in Christian teaching today. Call it "disciple-making" if you please, but it is teaching how to live life well in a manner pleasing to God. Again, "wisdom" is a skill for living, not intellectual attainment. Does this make sense for you? Let me hear your thoughts.

 

Which approach is Christian?

If this is Christian counseling, which approach is the Christian one? The faculty include men and women of diverse views in psychology and counseling. If one view is Christian, then others must not be Christian. C. S. Lewis argued that the word Christian must mean something other than just good or it meant nothing at all. So, with apologies to Lewis, we argue that Christian counseling (they say "Biblical counseling," which it is not) must refer to one thing and not another and most certainly not all approaches or it means nothing at all. So, please tell me which of the approaches are Christian and which are not because all do not agree.