biblical self defense

No, masdak, I do not believe it is "self-defense" to kill someone who is stealing from you - and I would never do so.

I would also be very careful about how I would use "a sword" so to speak. Christ was pretty adament about being peaceful people.

Having said that, I hunt, I own weapons and if someone were to attempt to hurt one of my family members I would use one to prevent it.

 

I am curious as to where the Bible advocates personal self-defense. This is something I have thought about before and I have never found biblical justification for defending oneself, only for defending others.

 

Luke 22:36
And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one."

I would add that if one is being attacked BECAUSE OF THE GOSPEL, that he should not fight back.

If it is just some moron that is violent for the sake of violence, then not only defend yourself, but be willing to defend others.

If you are Peroutka, get your wife to defend you.

 

If you are George W. Bush, go hide behind your daddy to keep you out of harm's way.

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[ June 28, 2004, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob Griffin ]

 

DD, that was one particular time. There are many other verses which indicate we should not strike back in regards to ourselves, such as turning the other cheek, going the extra mile, telling Peter to put away his sword (in the Garden) for those who live by the sword will die by the sword.

So I see that a sword is part of something, but what? I do not see anywhere that it is actually recommended for self-defense, for Paul was beaten, stoned, etc., and never once made reference to defending himself. Stephen made no attempt to defend himself.

This has been in my mind for some time, for I am very curious as to why there are such things as "Christian" self-defense courses, which all seem to be based on Eastern religious practices!

Aren't our lives in the hands of God?

Doesn't He defend? Isn't that part of the message of the Bible?

Which martyrs of the faith went down 'defending' themselves?

 

Helen, that is why I said that if it is for the sake of the gospel, you don't fight back.

I have been teaching my sons that God made certain people stronger, that they might protect. We (men) are to cherish and value the weaker vessel.

 

You crack me us, massdak...

DD, no problem with what you said, but that is not SELF defense. Defense of others, yes. But where does it say we are to defend ourselves?

 

You don't defend yourself, the bully will do the same thing to the next person and continue until someone knocks his teeth out or gives him a black eye. That is the way bullies work.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Ephesians 6:12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness, 15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace; 16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one. 17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God; 18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--

 

Dr. Bob, I think I'll call you on my cellphone before I step onto your porch to knock...just in case...

 

I do not read where Jesus ever stopped a bully, actually! He overturned tables in His Father's House, He read the riot act to the Pharisees....

but He never hit back.

Neither did Paul.

Neither did any of the Apostles that we read about.

This is not about defending your children or grandchildren. This is not about defending your nation or even your culture. This thread is about SELF (singular) defense -- a personal thing.

The Bible says nothing about stopping bullies, actually. That is not our job. Our job is to portray something entirely different in our words, our demeanor, our very selves.

Isn't it?

 

Helen,

Do you believe the troops in Iraq are committing a sin right now by defending others from a genocidal bully? Is there a point to this thread besides promoting pacifism and condemning those who protect others? Do you not understand that by defending yourself that you are also defending others in the process?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Actually, Joseph, I am not a pacifist. This thread is not about war. You were closer on the mark when you referred to bullies earlier. For instance, many Christian parents take their children to martial arts schools for the sole purpose of learning self-defense. That is the sort of thing I am talking about, not about defending others or going to war or anything along those lines.

In the neighborhood, at school, at work (perhaps on Baptist Board...) -- these places. Are we to defend ourselves when attacked personally? If so, please show me where the Bible recommends this.

 

Actually, Helen,

I would contend to you that bullies are bullies no matter what the scale. For example, Saddam was a genocidal terroristic bully. He kept doing what he was doing, preying on the weak until he was stopped (I know the war is not over yet, but I believe his fellow bullies will be stopped as well). Then there is the bully in the hallway who says, "Join our gang or we will beat you up, or beat your younger brother up". They are both bullies, just at differing degrees. They both prey on the weak and will continue to do what they want to whomever they want until someone jacks them up and knocks their teeth out, or kills their two bully thug sons and arrest them.

Now, as to the question of how defending yourself relates to defending others. If you allow them to do it to you without defending yourself, they will continue to do it to you and others. That is, until someone draws that line in the middle of their nose and breaks it.

Pacifism is pacifism no matter what the scale. It goes to differing degrees based on the situation, but it is still based on the same philosophy no matter what: It is a sin to hit back and defend oneself or another. Now, please tell me. Do you believe it is a sin to defend yourself (whatever the degree of the attack) or not?

Joseph Botwinick

 

Helen, what about the verse I posted where Christ said to buy a sword if they didn't already have one?

What was the sword for?

 

Joseph, I know what your opinion is. I was asking for biblical references.

DD, I did respond to you on that. It seems to contradict some of the other verses, unless it was not to be used in self-defense, or unless this was a specific order for a specific time, a one time deal.

I am not coming on here to pick an argument. I have really had this as a question on my mind for literally a number of years. When Christ said he did not come to bring peace but a sword, He then spoke of dividing members of families because of Him. And I really don't think He meant He wanted father and son or mother and daughter to use physical violence toward each other -- that would make the commandment to honor one's parents moot, wouldn't it?

And then in Ephesians, I read, as was referenced before in this thread, that our battle is not against flesh and blood but against spiritual powers. And I read there that all our equipment which we are to have is defensive, to prevent the enemy's missiles from hurting us, except the sword, which is there defined as the Word of God.

So I am asking for that sword to be shown in this thread. Where does the Word of God tell us to defend ourselves in any instance from personal attacks, be they physical, verbal, or whatever?

And DD, I am curious as to what you think the sword the disciples were told to buy for that one journey was for? I read nothing about any of them using one!

 

Barry has been reading this thread and just made a comment I think worth mentioning. Paul tells us to support the authorities put over us, for God put them there. Their job is to maintain law and order. Vigilante justice is not lawful in the United States. Joseph, it is not up to us to 'stop bullies.' Legally, it is our responsibility to report them. It is the job of the authorities (done well or badly does not seem to be an issue in the biblical directives here) to take the bullies in hand. The authority may be a teacher in a school yard, a supervisor at work, a policeman, or whatever. But if we take authority into our own hands, we are doing it against the biblical directives.