Biblical sufficiency

Do you think that Jesus turned the water into alcoholic wine?

What does the Bible say about a Priest and Alcoholic wine?

Lev 10:8- And the LORD spake unto Aaron, saying,

Lev 10:9- Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Lev 10:10 - And that ye may put difference between holy and unholy, and between unclean and clean;

Lev 10:11 - And that ye may teach the children of Israel all the statutes which the LORD hath spoken unto them by the hand of Moses.

Surely you would agree that Jesus is the High Priest?
Is He a King? Let see what the Bible has to say about kings and Alcoholic wine.

Pro 31:3- Give not thy strength unto women, nor thy ways to that which destroyeth kings.

Pro 31:4- [It is] not for kings, O Lemuel, [it is] not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:

Pro 31:5 -Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.

Once again the question has been asked, Does the Bible contradict itself? The context determines if the wine is alcoholic or not.

Sounds like really strong prohibitions to me?

 

to all

I’m in a bad mood, I readily admit, and I wasn’t going to get into this argument again, but this is just silly and an example of someone twisting scripture to suit their predetermined presuppositions.

PK wrote:

Jesus absolutely turned water into wine. The Greek word for wine is, well…wine. There is no misunderstanding, there is no double-speak—the Greek is clear. Wine is wine.

Now, to the Leviticus passage. I’m not sure I have seen such a blatant breaking of context as this. The passage clearly states that drinking is not the problem. Rather drinking before or while doing your priestly work is the problem.

The Leviticus passage you have quoted comes on the heels of Nadab and Abihu being consumed [killed by God with fire] because they offered “strange fire” before God in the tabernacle. Were they drinking? The text doesn’t say. What the text does say is that PUI [that is, Priesting Under the Influence] is absolutely unacceptable.

The text does not say that drinking alcohol is unacceptable.

As far as the Proverbs passage goes, Proverbs are still subject to context. First, this is a proverb from Lemuel’s mother to Lemuel. Context suggests Lemuel has disappointed his mom, quite possibly by his excessive drinking. However, the very next passage, which you failed to quote says:

6 Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress;
7 let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more (ESV)

So, then, why does Lemuel’s mom suggest not drinking, for kings, and then drinking for the perishing, she suggests drinking? It would seem that these passages are contradictory. Do you mean to suggest, from this passage, that there are people who should drink? I doubt you would.

In general, anyone who tries to suggest the Bible prohibits the drinking of alcohol just looks silly. The amount of mental and textual gymnastics required to support this unfounded claim is staggering.

Certainly, you are free not to drink. In fact, as is evident, if you feel drinking to be a sin, you must not drink. However, you cannot, scripturally speaking, apply that same standard to anyone else.

This discussion is a perfect example of the whirlwind reaped by teaching something other than true Biblical Christianity. Instead we have people spouting all sorts of unsupported doctrines who seek to twist scripture to their presupposed doctrine rather than twist themselves to the rule of scripture.

This is precisely what happens when pastors do not teach how to read the scriptures. Oh that we may have pastor/teachers who teach and preach to accomplish these three objectives: 1. This is what the text says; 2. This is what the text means (and why it means what it means); and 3. Therefore we must do _____________

Enough from me.

The Archangel

PS. I do not drink alcohol and I never will suggest anyone should drink alcohol.

 

Since you obviously haven't taken the time to read the previous post I will stated again....
You are correct that the Bible means wine when it says wine. I do not argue that "all" does not mean "all" because it does. Please read the follow and let me know in the context if it's #1 (alcoholic wine) or #2 (nonalcoholic):

Prov. 20:1 ?
Prov. 23:31 ?
2 Chor. 31:5 ?
Neh. 13:5 ?
Prov. 3:10 ?
Is. 16:10 ?
Is. 65:8 ?
Gen. 9:21 ?
Gen. 19:33 ?
Prov. 23:29-35 ?
Is. 5:11 ?
Is. 28:7-8 ?
Eph. 5:18 ?

There is a distinction between new wine and mixed.

 

PK,

Oh I read the post. Unfortunately with all do respect, what your post shows, for the most part, is that you do not understand context among many other things.

Later, after I am home from work, I will post a detailed response that addresses all the verses you posted. Until then…

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Would Jesus drink alcohol at all? the answer is a resounding NO and can be found in God's Word for those who truly are seeking the answer.

Unfortunately, many do not see the answer... or just refuse to believe it.

 

So this is where the drinking thread is.. All this time I thought this thread was on the sufficiency of the Bible...

Carry on...

 

Great sense of humor! :thumbs:

 

At least someone understands that this was for priest and not just for their practice!
I think there is a "s" on kings and notice vs3 and how the idea is carried on with "the ways that will destroy"??

 

PK Wrote:

Obviously, as you have argued previously, you think there is a distinction between wine and strong drink. As I promised, I will address each verse (or at least enough to make my point) you posted (except, of course, where they overlap).

Proverbs 20:1 (ESV)
Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler,
and whoever is led astray by it is not wise.

The Hebrew for wine is yayin . The word literally means a fermented drink. By the definition of the Hebrew word, this yayin wine (to be redundant) is, again by definition, alcoholic.

The Hebrew for strong drink is shekar . The word also literally means a fermented drink. It is possible it is referring to a grain drink like beer (this is most likely) or hard liquor (this is far less likely). However, what is certain is that the word, by definition means a fermented drink.

Note: My assumption here is this: You are making a distinction between “Wine” and “Strong drink” because the writer of the proverb seems (and I mean seems) to be doing so. If that is the case (if my assumption is correct) you are simply wrong, for you do not understand how Hebrew works.

The author is not seeking to make a distinction between wine and strong drink. Rather the author is equating wine with strong drink—they are both intoxicating if taken in excess. Hebrew commonly uses this type of “Step” as a way of intensifying what the author intends to communicate. Therefore, wine and strong drink are not two separate things.

Proverbs 23:31 is included in another of your listed passages

2 Chron. 31:5 (ESV)
As soon as the command was spread abroad, the people of Israel gave in abundance the firstfruits of grain, wine, oil, honey, and of all the produce of the field. And they brought in abundantly the tithe of everything.

The word for wine here is tiros which means new wine. Most likely, this “wine” had not been allowed to ferment, but the possibility does exist it had been fermented, although, from what I’ve read, it is not likely.

Contextual Note: The people were giving of the “first fruits” so it should not be surprising that new wine was given as an offering. It is likely fermentation had not begun in this first batch, but subsequent batches would be fermented.

Nehemiah 13:4-5 (ESV)
Now before this, Eliashib the priest, who was appointed over the chambers of the house of our God, and who was related to Tobiah, [5] prepared for Tobiah a large chamber where they had previously put the grain offering, the frankincense, the vessels, and the tithes of grain, wine, and oil, which were given by commandment to the Levites, singers, and gatekeepers, and the contributions for the priests.

The word for wine here is tiros which means new wine.

Proverbs 3:9-10 (ESV)
Honor the Lord with your wealth
and with the firstfruits of all your produce;
[10] then your barns will be filled with plenty,
and your vats will be bursting with wine.

The word for wine here is tiros which means new wine.

Isaiah 16:10 (ESV)
And joy and gladness are taken away from the fruitful field,
and in the vineyards no songs are sung,
no cheers are raised;
no treader treads out wine in the presses;
I have put an end to the shouting.

The Hebrew for wine is yayin .

Context: A prophecy about the destruction of Moab

Isaiah 65:8 (ESV)
Thus says the Lord:
"As the new wine is found in the cluster,
and they say, 'Do not destroy it,
for there is a blessing in it,'
so I will do for my servants' sake,
and not destroy them all.

The word for wine here is tiros which means new wine.

Context: Highly pictorial language addressing Israel as a vineyard producing bad grapes. In this passage, God is talking about keeping a remnant. The new wine is not talking about wine at all, it is referring to Israel.

Genesis 9:20-21 (ESV)
Noah began to be a man of the soil, and he planted a vineyard. [21] He drank of the wine and became drunk and lay uncovered in his tent.

The Hebrew for wine is yayin .

Genesis 19:30-33 (ESV)
Now Lot went up out of Zoar and lived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters. [31] And the firstborn said to the younger, "Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth. [32] Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father." [33] So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose.

The Hebrew for wine is yayin , as it is in this entire pericope.

Proverbs 23:29-35 uses a mixture (no pun intended) of words including yayin and another word mimsak meaning mixed (and therefore alcoholic) wine.

Ok, that’s enough quoting and explaining.

Now, you claim “There is a distinction between new wine and mixed.” Of course there is a difference. Unfortunately, you have come to a wrong conclusion.

You have chosen your verses quite selectively. Yayin occurs 140 times in the Old Testament. Why have you not chosen to refer to all the verses? Is it because you are embarrassed what some of those verses say? Is it because you know some of those verses disprove your presupposition? Perhaps you are simply unaware? Let me give some examples:

1 Chronicles 12:40 yayin is seen as a blessing of abundance.

Exodus 29:40 yayin is poured out as a drink offering. It would seem you selectively chose the “new wine” (2 Chronicles 31:5) as an offering where the Bible clearly speaks of both.

And by the way, a similar passage to Exodus 29:40 is Leviticus 23:13. It is speaking of offerings like flour mixed with oil and also wine—about a gallon of wine.

Leviticus 23:13 (ESV)
And the grain offering with it shall be two tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, a food offering to the Lord with a pleasing aroma, and the drink offering with it shall be of wine, a fourth of a hin.

It was common practice for the priests to consume the offerings, that is how they were sustained (since there was no tribal land, and therefore crops or flocks, for the Levites) So, the gallon of wine offered was consumed by the priests.

Also, Hosea 4:11 is very interesting.

Hosea 4:11 (ESV)
whoredom, wine, and new wine,
which take away the understanding.

This passage speaks of “new wine” as taking away understanding too. It is talked about in the same light as “wine.” This verse alone practically voids your argument and presupposition.


This could go on forever. However, one thing is certain—drinking wine (whatever the word) is never forbidden unless you are a Nazarite (like Samson) or a priest on duty in the temple/tabernacle, to name a few cases.

Certainly, the Bible commands us not to get drunk and the Bible take great pains to show what happens to those who get drunk—they act like fools, impregnate their children, etc. It never says, however, not to drink. Unfortunately, your selective use of scripture shows your point to be poorly argued. Nevertheless, I’m sure I will not change your opinion that alcohol is a sin. I don’t drink and I never advocate drinking, but for those whose conscience does not restrict them, it is perfectly acceptable, so long as they do not over indulge and get drunk.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Do you truly know what God means when His Word says 'drunk.' Are you absolutely sure that His definition of drunk, drunken, drunkard... are the same as your definition?

What if His definition is much lower than yours? What if your condoning wine on this board causes someone else to become a drunk because they were not able to control their drinking? Don't you think God will hold you responsible?

Can you afford to take the chance?

 

I don't want to belabor the point SFIC because I am an abstainer (for another reason than that alcohol is evil in and of itself).

The use of this word Shekar is exclusively used in the Scripture for an alcoholic beverage of a higher proof than wine.

For instance: 1 Samuel 1:13

13 Now Hannah, she spake in her heart; only her lips moved, but her voice was not heard: therefore Eli thought she had been drunken.
14 And Eli said unto her, How long wilt thou be drunken? put away thy wine from thee.
15 And Hannah answered and said, No, my lord, I am a woman of a sorrowful spirit: I have drunk neither wine nor strong drink, but have poured out my soul before the LORD.​

Isaiah 29:9 Stay yourselves, and wonder; cry ye out, and cry: they are drunken, but not with wine; they stagger, but not with strong drink.​

The meaning of the word is a given and is comparable to the english word "whiskey" and is the plain and simple meaning of the Scriptures.​

I will say this: The Law forbids the use of wine and strong drink for priests, kings and those who take a Nazirite vow.​

In the NT we are called a nation of royal priests.​

1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:​

Revelation 5

9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Since we are all NT priests then perhaps an argument for abstinence can be made on that basis, that under grace as kings and priests we have a more profound calling than priests under the Law. ​

However, we are not under the Law but led of the Spirit.​

If the Spirit leads one to abstain from alcohol (as He does me) then by all means we should do as He instructs.​

Offense works both ways.​

Many of our Primitive Baptist brethren take offense at the use of grape juice for communion saying that it was not so from the beginning of the church because the "cup" of the Lord's Supper came out of the Passover (seder) meal which from time immemorial, was alcoholic wine.​

God bless you SFIC , indeed you stand firm (and without guile) in your beliefs , that is admirable brother.​

HankD​

 

Quote
I will say this: The Law forbids the use of wine and strong drink for priests, kings and those who take a Nazirite vow.Unquote


Wasn't that only referring to when they were in the tabernacle?

Wow, been gone 2 weeks and one alcohol thread has ran it's course and shut down and another pops right back up in it's place.

 

Standingfirminchrist, you wrote:

First of all, I am not “condoning wine” or any other alcoholic drink for that matter. As I have plainly stated before, I do not drink alcohol and I do not condone its use by anyone. Alcoholism runs rampant on both sides of my family and I certainly don’t want to be a drunk and I want to voluntarily set myself apart from the world, so I don’t drink.

However, there are several other problems with your reply:

You wrote: What if your condoning wine on this board causes someone else to become a drunk because they were not able to control their drinking?

People are responsible for their own actions. If people use my exegesis as an excuse for lack of personal responsibility, that is their issue, not mine.

Also, the New Testament passages dealing with a similar issue (meat sacrificed to idols) shows that if I know there is a weaker brother who has a problem with drinking (in this case), then it is incumbent on me to lay down my liberty for that brother so that I do not become a stumbling block.

In New Testament times, we see the Pharisees doing a similar thing (now, I am not calling you a Pharisee). The Old Testament Law had 613 commands to follow. After the Babylonian captivity, the sect of the Pharisees came on the scene and their thinking was simple. They thought since God had dispossessed them from the land of Israel, they would insure this would never happen again if the law was kept perfectly. So, they added a hedge around the law—some 1500 (by some estimates) extra commandments designed to insure no persons would come close to breaking the law, thereby incurring God’s wrath. The Pharisees didn’t have a clue that it was a heart issue, not a law issue.

Today, this would look like this: The speed limit is 55 MPH. The Pharisees would insist that any good Jew would have to drive at 50 MPH, just so the 55 MPH law was not broken. What they did was to elevate their thoughts of what the law was above what the law actually said. Today, people do the same thing with the alcohol issue.

Many people think drinking alcohol is the issue, it isn’t. Being drunk is the issue. Unfortunately, many people place a hedge around the drunkenness issue by stating that all drinking is sinful. Now, I don’t think people should drink, but I can’t make the case biblically because the Bible doesn’t make that case!

Many people, Baptists (Southern Baptist Preachers, in particular) have a problem with over eating and becoming fat and unhealthy. Would you also, then, suggest no one eat because they might over eat? Eating can be every bit as much of an addiction as alcohol but, of course, you wouldn’t suggest not eating.

The issue here is biblical fidelity—are you (and myself) being true to what the Bible actually says? It is a dangerous thing to put word in the mouth of the Bible.

This argument/discussion is the result of pastors not properly teaching the Bible. Pastors must teach what the Bible actually says. In this case, the Bible gives the Christian liberty to drink. But, that liberty is never to be confused with license to drink.

Many Blessings,

The Archangel

 

Just wanted to thank you for the time you devoted to proper biblical interpretation. There are those who will not hear it or take the time to thank you for your well thought out posts.

 

I agree.

Thank you.:applause:

 

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man.

 

Proverbs 23:29-35 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes? They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright. At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder. Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things. Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast. They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

Where is the warning to stop drinking at a certain point? I do not see it. The command is not to drink some and then stop once you begin feeling the effects of the alcohol, but rather to Look thou not upon it in the first place. A clear command to abstain to those who truly seek the truth.

It does not say 'After you have had a glass, a can, a bottle, stop before you get to the point of redness of eyes, woe, contention, wounds without cause., etc.

There... I have used ONLY THE BIBLE... in context with the passage even, to show that we are to abstain from alcohol