Featured Biblical tension

A great article relevant to the conversation.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/a...n-between-the-ideal-family-and-reality-80081/

 

Every once and a while I get "something" right...even in your eyes.

 

Iconoclast,
This was a really good thread that hits at the heart of a lot of our doctrinal discussions, but even more important it moves us along towards spiritual maturity.
We are clothed in Christ's righteousness, yet we are to hunger and thirst for righteousness.
Really good thots throughout this thread!

 

What about the 'paradigm of tension' the extremist Evangelicals have set up by placing the horrendous burden of other's eternal destiny on the shoulders of the flock? Even those under the Old Covenant had no such yoke placed upon them.

Passages such as Jn 1:13 clearly deny any involvement of the flesh in becoming a child of God.

 

Here's some tension for you:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do.
16 But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not.
19 For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise.
20 But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.
21 I find then the law, that, to me who would do good, evil is present.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Ro 7

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are contrary the one to the other; that ye may not do the things that ye would. Gal 5:17

Nothing short of warfare within. But of course those that hold to the predestination of all things can always claim "I was foreordained to do that deed, it was predestined by God", or open themselves to that charge by their adversaries. That is the REAL tension set up by some Calvinists.

The world simply claims, "the devil made me do it".

 

1st. RE: salvation, a large portion of the scriptures must be thrown if no human responsibility is involved--both before and after salvation.
To the Ethiopian Eunuch, Philip said: If thou believest that Jesus is the Son of God... First he had to believe. It was his responsibility.
To the Philippian jailer: "What must I DO to be saved?" "BELIEVE" on the Lord..." It was his responsibility to believe.
What did Jesus say:
[FONT=&quot]John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.[/FONT]
--He that believeth: He that believeth not--The onus is on the one that believes. That is human responsibility.
[FONT=&quot]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.[/FONT]
--He that believth--human responsibility.

As for John 1:13, you neglected the preceding verse, John 1:12
[FONT=&quot]John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:[/FONT]
--One must receive him; must believe on his name.
The responsibility is on man to receive Christ; to believe on his name.

You cannot just so glibly dismiss the totality of Scripture.

As for responsibility after one is saved the same is true.
One cannot take one Scripture out of its context and isolate it from the rest of the Bible. It does say, "God works in us." He does, but that doesn't mean that we don't work in conjunction with God, especially God the Holy Spirit.

[FONT=&quot]Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.[/FONT]
--Well know verses. It is we that must bring ourselves to the place that we are willing sacrifices. To do that we must grow in grace in order that our lives may be holy and acceptable unto God.
How do we do that?
The first step is to separate ourselves from the world, something many in this New Calvinism don't seem to understand. Wordliness is no problem for them.
Separation from the world leads to demonstrating that which is good and acceptable to God.
All of this is done in cooperation with the Holy Spirit as we yield to him. We have no strength to do it on our own. Yet we cannot remain passive.

 

And how does any of this bloviating of yours hold me accountable me for someone going to hell for all infinity?

 

In Acts 1:8 Jesus said we are his witnesses and commanded us to go.
Jesus said "the field is the world," and then re-emphasized it again in Mark 16:15 by saying "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

The Lord said in Ezekiel:
[FONT=&quot]Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?[/FONT]
--He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Therefore he set up a way that the wicked should not perish.

[FONT=&quot]Ezekiel 33:7 So thou, O son of man, I have set thee a watchman unto the house of Israel; therefore thou shalt hear the word at my mouth, and warn them from me.
8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.[/FONT]

Yes, God will require their blood at your hand if you fail to witness to those whom you could have reached with the gospel. I do believe that. We are accountable and will be held accountable at the judgment seat of Christ.

Notice Paul said two things about reaching the lost in 1Cor.5. They were two motivations:
[FONT=&quot]2 Corinthians 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:[/FONT]
--First, the love of Christ constrained him. He witnessed to others out of his love for Christ.

[FONT=&quot]2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.[/FONT]
--In the context of the judgment seat of Christ, and the fear of giving account of Christ, the terror or fear of standing before God Almighty pressed him on to persuade men of Christ. This was the other motivating factor in Christ.
It was both love and fear at the same time. The fear was a holy fear, not dread. He knew he would be held accountable before God. We all will. What will we have to show for it.
Indeed, their blood will be on our hands.
God does not work in a vacuum..

 

YOU are inserting eternal consequences into the contexts where eternal consequences are not even implied.

 

If Paul didn't persuade men they would go to Hell. There would indeed be eternal consequences. What do you think he was persuading men about?

[FONT=&quot]Acts 17:16 Now while Paul waited for them at Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, when he saw the city wholly given to idolatry.
17 Therefore disputed he in the synagogue with the Jews, and with the devout persons, and in the market daily with them that met with him.[/FONT]
--There he was in the midst of the city where the market was persuading the idolatrous pagans that Christ was the only way of salvation.

 

Again, YOU are inserting eternal consequences into the contexts where eternal consequences are not even implied.

YOU are creating 'tension' here, NOT the scriptures.

 

Perhaps I'm just misreading, KYR, but it seems as though you're saying there were no eternal consequences to the work Paul was doing in Athens. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Thanks.

 

There was no 'eternal consequences' connected with any of the apostle's missions. It was all about bringing the the 'other sheep I have' into the fold. Paul's ministry in Athens was no different than any other place. For instance Corinth, the Spirit told him beforehand, 'I have many people in this city', and that was BEFORE Paul had even gotten established there. It was no different with Athens or any other place he went.

 

The fact that we can grieve the Holy Spirit, need to be admonished to obey, restore fellowship etc. tells us we are given responsibility in the limited sovereignty God grants us in his over all sovereignty making our choices real choices... perfecting his love (1 John 2:5).

 

If Paul disobeyed, and had not gone, those people would not have been reached. They would have died and gone to Hell. And their blood would be upon Paul's hands.
There is the matter of human responsibility and obedience.
The Lord knew Paul would obey, and was giving him reassurance and comfort that He would protect him.

 

Again, it's all tension that you DHK, and those like you, create. There's not one iota of scripture that backs you up on your asinine claims. As much as you desire to put that impossible grievous to be born burden of other's eternal destiny on the backs on God's people, the scriptures do not in any way support it.