Biblical Universalism

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by KenH, Nov 14, 2002.

  1. KenH

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    I have come across an idea called "Biblical Universalism". It can be summed up thusly -

    "The Good News of the Gospel is that as a result of Christ's death ALL men are saved, EXCEPT those who, in addition to their sin in Adam, willfully, personally, and finally REJECT whatever revelation God has given them of himself."

    Comments? Can Calvinists and non-Calvinists agree on this?

    Ken

    [ November 15, 2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  2. Helen

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    That's an interesting statement, Ken, but I think I would honestly go more Calvinistic than that. Please don't drop your eyeballs, OK?

    First, for the record and to avoid rifle fire, can we just talk about adults? And adults of reasonably normal mental faculty.

    If that is OK, then considering adults, all have died spiritually and are condemned to hell unless they respond to the truth in whatever form God reveals to them. If there is a positive response to that, then God will lead them step by step to Christ unless at some point they choose not only to deny the truth but to continue denying it. To be honest, I have never been aware of someone wanting to know what was true in the beginning (as an adult) who then decided to reject the whole thing, but maybe I have just lived not knowing enough people...

    I do know a person can want to know the truth and not recognize it. I think you know my dad's story. He was certainly that way for a very long time. Nevertheless he valued what he knew of the truth and he taught us to value it, too. But when God did 'get his attention' enough to lead him to Christ Jesus, Daddy knew immediately that this truth he had been longing for his whole life had been staring him in the face, so to speak, and he had never recognized it.

    So yes, all sentient adults have died because of their rebellion against God. I differ from Calvinism on this one, as you all know. But there is a point where we can all agree, certainly that there is no adult who is not dead in sin (separated from God) to start with.

    The Bible says no one is looking for God. And this is true. In that state none of us is looking for God. But some do respond to the truth as God reveals it to them. It may be the truth about the condition of their own hearts (that's what did it for me!), it may be the truth about something they see in the complexity and order of the natural world, it may be any number of things. It may even be something in the way of Bible stories or even old stories and legends which only contain bits of the truth buried in the mythologies instead. People respond to different things.

    Paul says in Romans 1, as we all know, that when the truth revealed is suppressed as a lifestyle, and that would indicate a consistent progression, I think, then God finally gives them over in a sort of "you want it? you got it!" scenario as the end of Romans 1 describes.

    But if there are those who suppress the truth, then there are clearly those who do not. And I really do think this is where some of those verses come in such as "Seek and ye shall find" and "Come, let us reason together.." -- verses like that. I do think God Himself encourages those who want the truth to keep going, keep searching.

    I heard in a sermon once that it is hard to steer a car that's not moving, and I think this is the point behind 'seek, knock, ask...' If you are willing to respond to the truth, and look for the truth, then God WILL guide you to Jesus Christ.

    So while we may be stumbling blind in the dark before we are born again, that's better than SITTING blind in the dark! And there are those who seem to sit their lives away, figuratively. I mean, being laid back is one thing, but refusing to do anything at all with your life is another!

    So no, as much as I would like it if everyone were saved until they rejected God, that's not what I'm seeing in the Bible (or in life). I'm seeing people lost and stumbling and blind. I'm seeing unredeemed hearts in the exact condition God describes them in Genesis 8:21 -- always tending toward evil. Tendencies can be resisted, and I think we have all seen or heard about some really valiant attempts made by people who are trying to 'redeem' or help themselves. But it doesn't work. Sometimes I think maybe it is to these very people Jesus was calling when He said, "Come to me all you that are exhausted and burdened," (my vernacular for the teens...).

    I do think Jesus did die for all of us. I think the Bible is clear about that. And since sin is, essentially, an insult to God, wiping out only part of the cumulative insult and leaving the rest is not a very satisfying solution. But even with all sin atoned for, people still have to respond to the truth: accept or suppress. Those who do accept, and then want more -- whether or not they have a clue about where to find it -- will be eventually led by the Father to Christ.

    Wow, I didn't mean to talk so much. I'm terrified of being misunderstood after so much of what has happened here!

    I'm not a Calvinist, but I am also MOST certainly not an Arminian. Someone I know described the middle ground as a Mugwamp Christian.

    I'm a Mugwamp Christian, I guess...

    My desire is to stay entirely biblical and not ignore or wiggle my way around ANY of the passages. So maybe others will have more agreement with the 'universalism' as you describe it above, but once we are adults, I guess I'm saying I think it is more what the Bible presents that we are universally lost unless we respond to the truth God presents us with and want more. And the heartbreaking thing is that most people seem to want the lie after they have seen a little bit of the truth. And I love some of those people and it really hurts.

    And yes, God knew all along who was going to be who. Calvinists take it a little further than that, but I think that 'minimal' position is not argued by anyone -- none of us think God is surprised by anything that happens.

    Now, you folks who consistently attack almost anything I say, please read the above with a little charity. I tried to explain myself in terms of what I think the Bible is saying and in response to Ken as well as I could and I'm sorry it took so many words.
     
  3. KenH

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    Thanks, Helen. A very well thought out comment. I just read about this idea today, so I am curious to see what folks have to say about it at first sight.

    I hope some others will also give thoughtful analysis as you have done. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  4. Pastor Larry

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    Or worded a different way, "Everybody is eating except those who aren't eating." This is basically biblical truth worded another way. After Scripture does teach that all men reject God naturally and willfully.

    [ November 14, 2002, 09:23 PM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]
     
  5. KenH

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  6. Helen

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    I read it. Interesting. I think I prefer being a Mugwamp. The way his alternatives are presented there seems awfully simplistic and also seems to ignore an awful lot of Bible... -- but I doubt anyone's looking for another essay here, and besides, the dinner dishes are in there as soon as I get up the energy... :D
     
  7. KenH

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    Here is an illustration from www.truthsearch.info/hawley44.htm

    Now remember I am not advocating this position, I am simply throwing it out for discussion to see what other people think. [​IMG]

    "A SIMPLE ILLUSTRATION

    All illustrations have their limitations, but perhaps the following will provide some help in showing the course a loving God would most likely pursue.

    Two men have been swimming offshore in a raging sea. Both are now exhausted, drowning, and their only hope for survival must come from some outside source. There are no people on shore to assist them, but a compassionate God surveys the situation. His love reaches out to them.

    1. UNIVERSALISM One man is conscious, the other unconscious. God throws a life ring over each man and pulls them ashore.

    2. ARMINIANISM Both men are conscious. God throws a life ring within the grasp of each man. IF they reach out and grasp the ring, God will pull them ashore.

    3. PERFECTIONISM Both men are conscious. God throws a life ring within the grasp of each man. If they reach out and grasp the ring, God will pull them ashore--providing they help paddle with all their strength, and have developed perfect characters.

    4. CALVINISM Both men are unconscious. God throws a life ring around one man and pulls him to safety. He leaves the other to drown.

    5. UNCONDITIONAL GOOD NEWS Both men are conscious. God throws a life ring around each man and begins to pull him ashore. Unless these men deliberately discard the rings, they will be saved.

    YOU WERE BORN SAVED! You didn't have to DO anything to be lost in the first Adam; why should you have to DO something to be saved in the second Adam, Jesus Christ? Your behavior is important, but only as FRUIT of salvation. Once we understand what the Savior experienced on Calvary, it creates a deep desire in our hearts to be obedient to him in all things. Obedience becomes a joy, rather than a miserable garnering of brownie points in the hopes of buying God off."


    [ November 15, 2002, 01:32 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  8. jmbertrand

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    Could we lobby the guy to change his Calvinism description to: "Both men are dead"? [​IMG]

    Seriously, I think the question of Scripture's universal language is fascinating. I would reduce the categories down to three:

    1. Literal Universalism. God saves every particular individual in the world.
    2. Hypothetical Universalism. God makes it possible for every particular individual in the world to be saved.
    3. Eschatological Universalism. In saving some particular individuals, God saves the world.

    Cue the B.B. Warfield:

    That's from The Plan of Salvation, and in spite of the potential for supporting a postmillenial view, I have always kept it close because it makes the scope of biblical universalism clear (excluding the hypothetical view) and shows how universalist aims can be achieved by particularist ends. In Noah and his family, God saved the world. In Christ and His family, God saves the world. That, it seems to me, is biblical universalism.

    Mark
     
  9. A4GivenGirl

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    __________________________________________________
    So no, as much as I would like it if everyone were saved until they rejected God, that's not what I'm seeing in the Bible (or in life). I'm seeing people lost and stumbling and blind. I'm seeing unredeemed hearts in the exact condition God describes them in Genesis 8:21 -- always tending toward evil. Tendencies can be resisted, and I think we have all seen or heard about some really valiant attempts made by people who are trying to 'redeem' or help themselves. But it doesn't work. Sometimes I think maybe it is to these very people Jesus was calling when He said, "Come to me all you that are exhausted and burdened," (my vernacular for the teens...).

    I do think Jesus did die for all of us. I think the Bible is clear about that. And since sin is, essentially, an insult to God, wiping out only part of the cumulative insult and leaving the rest is not a very satisfying solution. But even with all sin atoned for, people still have to respond to the truth: accept or suppress. Those who do accept, and then want more -- whether or not they have a clue about where to find it -- will be eventually led by the Father to Christ."
    __________________________________________________
    Wow Helen! :) I am always so interested to read your thoughts, and responses! I find it a joy to converse with other believers about the things of God and His Word. I guess I would like to take two things that you said here, and try to maybe explain the "other side" (although I truly don't like to call it that). First of all, you said that the lost are stumbling around in the darkness. When the Bible speaks of the lost, though, it portrays them quite differently. Ephesians 2:1-5 says "And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)" Well, one could have a very deep exigesis of this passage dealing with alot of theology, but I will try to keep this brief. First of all, it reminds us twice that we were dead in our sin. We weren't on our death bed reaching towards God, we were in a grave. We were totally spiritually dead. And, yes, like you said, we will go toward the way of evil and sin, because that is what our flesh desires. (The Christians 3 Greatest Enemies: #1 Flesh, #2 World, #3 Satan) Now to the second thing... You said that you believed that Jesus paid for everyone's sins (General Atonement). I know that what I"m going to say probably isn't anything you haven't heard, but here I go... If Jesus paid for their sins, He redeemed them. This redemption paid the price, it vindicated God's wrath on sin. The nature of this atonement in which Christ was abandoned by God (Matthew 27:46, Christ became our curse (Galatians 3:13), Christ took our sin (2 Corinthians 5:21, and Christ took our place (Ephesians 5:2) demands particular redemption. When we say that Christ died for sinners, we mean that he engaged in the work of substitutionary curse-bearing for sinners. The question then is, How can those for whom CHrist bore their curse every bear the curse themselves? If Christ atoned for every person's sins, then all must be saved (Universalism-which we agree is false and unscriptural) or God must punish the same sins twice. There are so many verses, and so many concepts that I would love to write on. If you are interested in this, and the scriptural evidence for it, I'd encourage you to look at the following verses/passages: Rev 5:9, 2 Cor 5:14, Rom 6:5/8, John 6:37-40, John 15:13-16, John 17:9, Eph 5:25-27, Mat.26:28, Mark 14:24, 1 Cor 11:25, Eph 2:12-13, Heb. 13:20. The Bible teaches that The context of atonement demands particular redemption. The covenant is the context of Christ's work. Christ's blood is covenant blood. All men are not in this covenant, the covenant secured the salvation of those in it (Jer. 31:31-34 NKJV), and if the atonement is in the context of the covenant, then its extent must be as wide as, but only as wide as, the covenant. This demands particular redemption. I realize there are many verses that at first glance would scream "Jesus died for all" but with careful hermaneutics, exigesis, and Greek reference, you will begin to see why it doesn't mean that. Thanks for reading, and I am encouraged that you are giving this thought. One more verse for thought: John 10:15-16, "As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you." Just a side note- I only call myself a Calvinist, because this is what people know these doctrines as today. It's actually Jesusism because He said it Himself :-D
     
  10. BobRyan

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    Or - how about the view of ARminianism that Calvinists force themselves to pretend they don't see the Arminians repeating time after time after time.


    2. ARMINIANISM Both men are UNconscious. God brings both to consciousness and enables them to reach out and hold on (John 12:32).

    BUT they are BOTH still dying in the water. So God throws a life ring within the grasp of each man. IF they CHOOSE to reach out and grasp the ring - as He has ENABLED them to do (John 12:32), God "IS faithful" to pull them ashore.


    I know it is a stretch - but how about showing the Arminian view? You can still object to it - but you should at least be able to show it.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  11. A4GivenGirl

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    But the Arminian view isn't biblical. We weren't just unconcious, we were dead
     
  12. Helen

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    Hi, A4GivenGirl,

    A couple of technical points first for you in your posting. You can make your posts much easier to read by paragraphing. Also UBB code means you can italicize or bold someone else's words or Bible quotes. Use square brackets [], and, without leaving any spaces, put the letter i between them to open italics and /i between them to close italics. Bold is opened with the letter b and closed with /b. If you want to indent a quote, marking it off as a quote, use the full word 'quote' (without the single quote marks) and then /quote to end.

    And lastly, is there a name we can call you by? A number of posters will have a handle on their posts but put their actual name on the bottom so conversations run a little more easily!

    But if not, no sweat.

    Now, onto your post.

    One of the major things I see Calvinists do is presume that death = unconsciousness and inability to respond. That is erroneous. Physical death is simply separation from the body. The body may be unconscious and starting to rot, but that has nothing to do with the person who has moved out of it! He is not unconscious in the least!

    In John 17:4, Jesus defines eternal life as knowing the Father and the Son. THEREFORE, eternal death must be NOT knowing them. This, again, is separation and not a condition of unconsciousness or unresponsiveness. If this were true, then it would be a farce for God to say to a spiritually dead sinner, "Come, let us reason together." It would make no sense for Jesus to say to anyone, "Come to me, all ye that are weak and heavy-laden.... But time after time the sinner is spoken TO, not just about, and a response is expected.

    So being dead in our sins means being apart from God; being out of the light, as so vividly expressed in John 1.

    He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

    One cannot recognize or 'not recognize' anything if one is unconscious. "To recognize" is a type of response. So is "to receive". These statements of John's would have been absurd if the Jewish people were incapable of responding at all.

    Again, in John 3

    Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainy what he has done has been done through God.

    In the above, the spiritually dead are loving darkness and doing evil deeds. The second is a result of the first. The first indicates a spiritually conscious state. You cannot love anything if you are not conscious. Those who do evil are also said there to fear. An unconscious person fears nothing. That is one of the reasons for anesthesia in surgery!

    Thus, while a spiritually dead person may be far from God, he is not unconscious or unable to respond. This is also applicable to the Ephesians passage you quoted. An unconscious man certainly cannot lust, or have desires to be fulfilled!

    I took my 'stumbling in the dark' reference, by the way, from the above passages.

    You then mentioned the Christian's three greatest enemies, but why worry about them? We are not weak, but in Christ strong. Greater is He that is in you than He that is in the world. And you will not suffer any temptation that is not common to man and that you will not be able to get out of. I know a lot of people say this in a twisted way that God will not give you anything you cannot handle, but He does that to me all the time! If I didn't totally depend on Him, I'd be sunk many times over! (Not that once isn't enough...)

    And yes, although sins incur the wrath of God, it is when they are done in the process of rejection of Christ, as the quote from John 3 indicates above. All sins are atoned for. It is the rejection of Christ -- the Truth -- that brings about God's fury. Paul is quite clear about that in Romans 1.

    But let's take a look at your verses in turn:

    Revelation 5:9 -- And they sang a new song:
    "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals,
    because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God
    from every tribe and language and people and nation."


    I know that Calvinists refer to this as meaning 'some men', and I agree that is the final result, but I don't think that is the meaning of this verse -- I think the point is that there is no time or culture or language or anything which was excluded from the knowledge of God's Promise of a Messiah, and thus, those who trusted in that ancient God of gods, and His Promise, were trusting in Christ as surely as you and I are, and that God knew this and they are His.

    This is in stark contrast with those who say that only one race, or only one time, or whatever, indicates those who can be saved. I think the point of this praise chorus is that God knows how to reach every man who has ever lived and that each man has had a choice regarding how to respond.

    2 Corinthians 5:14 -- I'll just put this in italics, because your quote, bolded, is a little different in context, I think.
    Since then we know what it is to fear the Lord, we try to persuade men. What we are is plain to God, and I hope it is also plain to your conscience. We are not trying to commend ourselves to you again, but are giving you an opportunity to take pride in us, so that you can anaswer those who take pride in what is seen rather than in what is in the heart. If we are out of our mind, it is for the sake of God; if we are in our right mind, it is for you. For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

    First of all, Paul and his fellow ministers are those whom Christ's love is compelling, not everyone (in this passage). Secondly, why on earth would Paul be trying to persuade anyone if they could not respond because they were spiritually unconscious? Thirdly, it is clear that we are all involved in Christ's death -- and therefore even the babies and little children are covered by His atonement until they willfully rebel (which they simply cannot do at that age!). The phrase 'those who live' coming after 'he died for all' indicate that not everyone He died for is going to end up living...

    Romans 6:5-8 (I assume that is what you meant, and I'm starting with verse 1 to put it in context)
    What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so tht grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him thorugh baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
    If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin -- because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

    Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him
    ...The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.
    In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.


    Here again we see death as separation. If we were unconscious to sin, then we would not sin at all! But we do. Nevertheless, we are separated from sin and even more so from the effects of sin in the long run, and close to God through Christ Jesus.

    Think also of what being a slave means -- it is not an unconscious state! Being a slave to sin is contrasted with being a slave to righteousness by Paul, as you know. At no point is there an indication of spiritual unconsciousness.

    John 6:37-40 -- I have done this so many times! Not your fault... [​IMG]
    Let's put it in context again (why are you leaving out verse 35???):
    Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."
    "Sir," they said, "from now on give us this breas."
    Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty

    allow me to interrupt here for this commercial message..."Ask, and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For EVERYONE who asks receives, he who seeks, finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened."
    and
    "Come to me, all ou who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
    back to the text above

    But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. FOR MY FATHER'S WILL IS THAT EVERYONE WHO LOOKS TO THE SON AND BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL HAVE ETERNAL LIFE, and I will raise him up at the last day."

    You will not see anything about sin there. Only believing. Secondly, there is a mutuality about all of this: "he who comes" and "he who believes" is balanced but not overshadowed by "all that the Father gives me." We cannot afford to pay attention to one side and ignore the other -- from either side. This is why I personally found it necessary to back up, if you will, to the concept of the truth and men's reactions to it, as Paul talks about in Romans 1.

    John 15:13-16 -- Greater love has no one than this, tht he lay down his life for his friends. You are my friends if you do what I command. I no longer call ou servants, because a servant does not know his master's usiness. Instead I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit -- fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name.

    He is talking to the disciples particularly here, not the world. Please do not take this out of context by applying it to all believers. It is not until chapter 17 that Jesus' prayer is started, as different from His last address before His crucifixion to His disciples. In His prayer, Jesus first prays for Himself, then for His disciples, and finally for the rest of us. The distinction is clear. But chapters 13:38-16:33 are distinctivly to the disciples. His choosing of them is chronicled in the Gospels.

    John 17:9, is likewise specifically for the disciples and about them. The prayer for all believers does not start untnil verse 20.

    Ephesians 5:25-27 -- Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

    This has to do with the preparation of the church and is not dealing with either general or limited atonement.

    Matthew 26:28 -- "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

    Yes, there are many, many people who have been alive in this world. The fact that Jesus told them also, in the Sermon on the Mount that MANY end up going through the wide gate but only a FEW find the narrow gate indicates that His blood was shed for many who do not end up on that narrow way...Bible explains Bible...

    Mark 14:24 -- parallel to the one above. Why did you reference both?

    1 Corinthians 11:25 -- this never mentions 'many' or 'few' at all but is simply a review of the offering of the cup. Why did you reference this one?

    Ephesians 2:12-13 -- remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.

    I think this makes it quite clear that spiritual death is being 'far away' from Christ, first of all, and not unconscious! And while the Promise was given to ALL men through Eve, the COVENANT of the Promise was given to Abraham and thus to Israel. This is that reference that Paul is making there. Again, this has nothing to do with limited or general atonement!

    Hebrews 13:20 -- this is a lovely benediction and I don't see what it has to do with your argument regarding limited atonement, but here it is:
    May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will, and may he work in us what is pleasing to him through Jesus Christ, to whom be glory for eve and ever. Amen.

    To which I add my heartfelt "Amen!"

    Regarding the Shepherd and the sheep, and the sheep knowing the Shepherd's voice, yes. Jesus said in John 14 that He is THE Truth. Paul says that those who suppress the truth are the cause of God's great anger (Romans 1). Jesus' sheep are those who want the truth and will then recognize it when it is given. They will respond to it and not suppress it, and God the Father will then lead them to Christ.

    It is a mutual thing, as a marriage should be.

    Please, we need to let Bible explain Bible, and not just take out verses here or there as 'proof texts' and ignore either their context or the rest of the Bible.

    "Choose this day whom you will serve" is just as valid today as it was on entry into the Promised Land.
     
  13. tyndale1946

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    Do we know exactly the moment we are saved? I beleve that whatever place in time or before time we have nothing to do with it! In the mind and purpose of God we are saved already as his promises are sure. Since Adam was unable to keep that, that God commanded what makes anyone think he can keep his eternal salvation? I want my eternal salvation in God and his Son Jesus Christ hands not mine.

    If I can keep it I can lose it and I thank God I come from the Primitive Baptist brethren that believe to do that is impossible... Not only is it Primitive Baptist doctrine but it is also biblical doctrine. Can you lose the joy of that salvation... it happens everyday!... Can you lose that eternal salvation that the Son of God purchased with his own blood?... "THINK AGAIN"

    You brethren dwell to much on who is going to be lost when the Bible states time and time again that God will not lose a one. You dwell to much on HELL and not enough time on HEAVEN. The plain biblical fact is there are some that don't belong to God... Never have and do not have the ability to do anything about it to make it so. Those are hard saying but they are biblical fact.

    I know one thing that the scriptures state we know we have passed from death unto life in that we love the brethren. Do you love the brethren? That is a good indication that you are born of God... I John 4:[7] Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

    [8] He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love... Like I have said time and time again God WILL save ALL his blood bought children and not lose a one... Brother Glen [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan
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    On the contrary - it is the Arminian view that we see expressed clearly in scripture "God so loved The World that He gave.." John 3:16 - Christ is the "Atoning sacrifice for Our sins and not for Ours sins only but for the Sins of the Whole World".. 1John 2:2

    "To as MANY as received Him - He gave the right"
    John 1

    "I will draw All Mankind unto Me" John 12"32.

    "God is Not Willing for Any to Perish" 2 Peter 3.

    "IF we Confess our sins He Is Faithful And Just to forgive" The Sequence is clear and the second part of the sequence describes the faithfulness of God in responding.

    "Behold I stand at the door and knock If any man Hears my voice and Opens the Door I will Come IN" Rev 3

    These "ALL Mankind" and "Whole World" texts describe and unlimitted atoning sacrifice applicable to all mankind. Not as 5-point Calvinists would prefer it.

    Having said that...

    I was simply keepindg with the motiff that Ken setup where the Calvinist model was "both are unconscious". He was simply pointing to innactivity and innability.

    BOTH Calvinism AND the Arminian groups agree that the Johnn 12:32 "DRAWING" of God is fully sufficient to ENABLE what the sinful nature's depravity "disables".

    IF that Common solution is appealed to by both groups - your argument above is void. The starting condition is not the "difference". NOR is the "differnece" that the John 12:32 drawing might be "insufficient" to enable action. ALL can agree that the start is "Depravity" and the Drawing is sufficient to "ENABLE" action.

    The diffierence is that while Arminians really DO believe God "Draws ALL MANKIND to Himself" John 12:32 - 5 point Calvinists do not.

    And Arminians belive that the Drawing ENABLE action as do the Calvinists - but the Calvinist insists on taking it even farther - to the forcing of the will.

    Christ did not say to Lazarus "I stand at the door and knock IF Lazarus hears my voice and opens the door - I will come in" Rev 3.

    "Come unto me all that are ALIVE and fully enabled - fully accepted and in fellowship with God" is not the message of Matt 11.

    Rather Christ appeals to the lost NOT to "discover that they are not lost" but to hear and choose to come.

    But we all agree that they are enabled by the drawing of God "of ALL mankind" John 12:32.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ November 16, 2002, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry
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    Having reread this, this is not what Ken said either. Ken did not say that "all are saved until they reject" but rather that "all are saved except those who reject ... " That is a significant point that we should not overlook.
     
  16. Yelsew

    Yelsew
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    Said either way, it still says that God is a respecter of man! It also says that Jesus didn't really mean, (John 3:16) "....Whosoever will...". The concept of this Calvinist teaching is somewhat in contrast of Jesus' words.
     
  17. npetreley

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    How so? "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." What I understand of Calvinism, it asserts nothing in contradiction to that.

    By the way, strictly speaking, "whosoever believes" could be viewed as God being a respecter of men, especially if one asserts free-will. If God chooses to have mercy on whomever He chooses to have mercy, then God is not a respecter of men. But if God chooses to have mercy only on those men who believe of their own free will, then God is a respecter of men, because he's not choosing at all - men are, and God responds to their choice.

    And if you want a contradiction, how about this onw: "Many are called but few are chosen." It doesn't say, "Many are called but few choose."
     
  18. Helen

    Helen
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    It is also written, "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."

    Again and again -- are we to believe only the elect are weary and burdened. Life is just a bowl of cherries for everyone else?
     
  19. npetreley

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    I don't know why you compare it to a bowl of chrries. IMO, this passage refers to the same condition as those mentioned here:

    And so on... these are people who are coming face-to-face with their sinful condition, the sins of the world, and mourn. Aware of their condition, they hunger and thirst for the righteousness they cannot generate of their own will and power. They are meek, and therefore are not blinded by pride such that they could not look to another, Jesus, to come to their rescue.

    The question is, are these symptoms of being elect? Or does God choose those people who have these symptoms? These passages (yours included) do not tell you which it is. You have to look elsewhere. So the invitation to "come, all you who are weary..." says nothing of free will.
     
  20. KenH

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    Have ya'll noticed that regardless of the topic a thread starts on it always seems to swing around to a debate over election and free will?

    Maybe we ought to just have one giant thread on "Election and Free Will" and leave it at that. [​IMG]

    Ken

    [ November 17, 2002, 12:10 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     

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