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Billy Graham's dark secret revealed

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Jun 28, 2005.

  1. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Yes, necessarily! Anyone can write in a vote for anybody. So they can easily reject all canidates who support murder. The "lesser of two evils" is just a loop hole they try to use, but God sees the heart. Many "Christians" try to find a way to justify their vote for murder. God sees.

    God Bless!
     
  2. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Check again Mike, I said nothing bad about democrats.</font>[/QUOTE]

    Nah, not you...

    Sorry. I guess I just got that idea from all of the "murder" talk.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    For a Christian - what political "goal" outweighs the value of human life and the sanctity of marriage?

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    steaver,

    You indicated that a vote for a candidate means that you identify yourself with everything that candidate stands for.

    I disagreed by saying...

    You responded with...

    But they dont want to do that. They dont want to cast a vote for Daffy Duck, or their next door neighbor, or Pat Paulson, or anyone else who has no chance of winning. They want to vote for the one...of the ones who are legitimate candidates...that they think is the best. And there could be a multiplicity of reasons why Joe Votecaster might feel that so and so is the better candidate. Joe Votecaster may not agree with everything that candidate stands for, but Joe feels that he/she is the best of the legitimate options.

    And nobody in their right mind would make the assumption that Joe completly agrees with literally every single thing that that particular candidate might say or do.

    You've just made MY point. God DOES INDEED see the heart, and God knows the reasons why Joe Votecaster is voting as he is, and God knows full well that Joe does not agree with murderering babies.

    Yes, God does. And God sees the motivation behind Joe Votecasters vote...and God knows full well that Joe hates the murder of babies but felt that this candidate is the lesser of 2 evils(for whatever reason), and God is not going to hold anything against Joe because of Joes vote.

    He will hold it against those who are joyfully approving of the baby extermination centers and even participating in the slaughter of these little babies.

    And I'm taking this stand as one who has never once voted for any candidate who is in favor of the murder of babies or having child extermination centers in existance. I just find it very sad that there are people who feel that God is somehow going to ZAP christians because of a vote they cast, or who vote for any candidate that might favor abortion.

    To tie politics and how God deals with His children together like this is not healthy, imo.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  5. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I don't know if you are personally offended because maybe you are a democrat and what they have embraced as a party makes you irritated or maybe you are having difficult seperating democrat with murderer. The fact is it has nothing to do with democrat verses republican . There are baby killers in both camps. You are the one saying it is democrats. I am able to understand that many democrats do not like murder, yet it is obvious that as a party they have gotten cozy with it and let it slide. Democrat or Republican is not the issue. There are pro-life canadates in both parties. Again I say find them and vote for them. If the Christian democrats would take a stand, murder would not even be a political issue. It would have remained a bad court decision and politics could focus on money issues leaving God's morals alone. God already gave us the constitution which states every person has the right to life. Abortion is murder whether you carry a democrat card or a republican card .

    God Bless!
     
  6. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    There you have it...they just want to WIN!!! Who cares if babies are being murdered...just let US WIN!!!

    I agree, what I said earlier is agree morally . That is possible.

    You got too be kidding. God knows full well that Joe Votecaster is putting winning or money matters or party above the murdering of babies. That is pure fact. I would not presume God is going to understand Joe's poor situation. Poor Joe, he just wanted to win.

    You are telling me that you personally know God is going to understand why Joe knowingly voted for a person who is going to enable others to murder babies? I would not presume so much concerning a Holy and Just God!

    Christians do not get "zapped" they are fully forgiven and they do not murder people whether directly or knowingly indirectly. So the issue is whether or not they are Christians. If they are they will repent, if they are not then they will not.

    God Bless!
     
  7. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    Zel Miller (the Democrat who spoke at the Republican convention) was asked why he doesn't just switch parties. He said he has been a democrat for many many years. He was one before the party turned liberal. He said it is like owning a home, when it starts falling apart you don't just throw it away and buy a new one. You try to fix it up the best you can.

    If every democrat who disagreed with the party platform left, there really would be no chance for that party to ever change again. There are going to be Republican candidates running this next election that will be pro-abortion. If they win, will you leave that party too?

    We join parties who "best support" our ideology. If we truly dislike it, we don't HAVE to change parties. We can, instead, try to change the party we are in.

    There are some Christians who remain democrat because they agree with thier economic rather than social viewpoints. Others, like Zel, and maybe Graham feel a loyalty to stay where they have been for many years, regradless. That does not make a person a murderer.

    ~Lorelei
     
  8. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    Steaver,

    Its not a basketball game. No thoughtful voter votes just because he wants to win. They vote because they want the candidate to be elected that they feel best represents...not necesarrily completly represents, but best represents...their views on how society should progress.

    Me...

    You...

    No, I'm not. God realy does see out hearts.

    Not in my hypothetical situation. In my hypothetical Joe Votecaster is not voting for any of those reasons. He is thoughtfully voting for the candidate they they feel is the best of the 2 options. Not the perfect candidate, but the best of the 2.

    Your talking about a differnt Joe.

    Joe Win-at-all-cost.

    Your attacking your strawman. I never presented Joe Win-at-all-cost. I presented Joe Votecaster who thoughtfully votes for the candidate who he thinks will be the best of the 2 options...looking at all the issues. Not just one.

    I may not agree with Joe Votecasters choice, but thats not my point. My point is that you presented the idea that when Joe Votecaster votes for a candidate, Joe has just..in essence..told the world that he holds to every moral position that the candidate votes for holds.

    All I'm saying is that that blanket statement just isnt true.

    Yes.

    I have no problem at all proclaiming that God sees and knows our hearts. And I thought you did as well...since you brought it up 1st...but apparently not.

    Unless you only believe God sees our hearts when He finds something to condemn us for, but not when there is nothing there worthy of condemnation.

    Grace and peace,

    Mike
     
  9. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I would leave when and if they ever embraced murder as a party position.

    That is correct. They are only a murderer if they knowingly cast a vote for a person who stands for abortion, democrat or republican or any other. It matters not what party they are registered in.

    God Bless!
     
  10. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    And you won't. You will, however, find numberous clear statements by Dr Graham and the BGEA which say the opposite, such as:

    "Life is sacred, and we must seek to protect all human life: the unborn, the child, the adult, and the aged."

    Unfortunately, the Christian Worldview Network's website appears to be nothing more than a WorldNetDaily in CBN clothing.
     
  11. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I would wager that every single Christian would say Amen! Even as many of them at the same time would cast a vote electing a representative who could care less about the unborn. Is that what they call a hypocrite?

    God Bless!
     
  12. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    No, it's called politics. Most folks base their decisions on a whole slew of issues. Not perfect, not ideal, but unless that candidate is Christ Jesus Himself, that's the way it is.

    But, I can tell you what is real voter hypocracy: telling people to vote their conscience, and then telling them their conscience was wrong if they vote for someone different than you or I would.
     
  13. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    "Thoughtfully"

    I guess they can tell the Lord and all of those who were murdered in heaven that they were just being thoughtful when they made their decision.

    I believe it was one of your examples and not my strawman...."But they dont want to do that. They dont want to cast a vote for Daffy Duck, or their next door neighbor, or Pat Paulson, or anyone else who has no chance of winning "...it was one of your examples. One example, not all of your examples.

    How about setting up an example of "two evils" using todays issues in politics and we will compare the issues in light of God's Word on the matters. Then we will decide which of the two are "lesser" in evil. First we need two establish biblically which issues are evil and which party is supporting them.

    One is murder (abortion) Another is war. Another is social programs. Another is environment.

    Any others, please bring them forth and then we will "thoughtfully" decide which ones are evil. I pray that "thoughtfully" does include God's Word on the issues.

    Sound fair?

    God Bless!
     
  14. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    I agree. No one should vote their conscience. We are given the Word of God to guide us. Murder is not a gray area. It stands out and should be screaming at the Christian to reject it and anything or anyone associated with it.

    God Bless!
     
  15. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    No one should vote their conscience???

    I will vote as the Holy Spirit leads ME, not however the Holy Spirit leads YOU.
     
  16. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Do you believe the Spirit of Christ would lead His child to vote for one who openly supports the murder of un-born babies?

    God Bless!
     
  17. D28guy

    D28guy New Member

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    Steaver,

    I said...

    And you responded, and quoted me in doing so...

    Yes, I said that. But what in the world do you think I meant when I said the person voted for the one with the best chance of winning?

    So the person could brag to his buddies at work by saying THIS???...

    "Oh boy oh boy! I picked the right one! I'M A WINNER!!, I'M A WINNER!!! Do I get a prize???"

    Its absolutly ridiculous. He didnt want to waste his vote on some obscure candidate, or just give a "write in" vote fo Daffy Duck or something. He chose to vote for the legitimate candidate whom he thought was the best of the options, looking at all the issues...not just abortion.

    I personally have never voted for a candidate who supports baby extermination, but do you honestly think that poor Joe Votecaster, who is born again and loves Jesus Christ, is going to hear from God one day...

    "Sorry, Joe. Rememeber back in 2004? When you voted for Bob Moderate in that election? You voted differently than Steaver over there, and even though the candidate had lots of good and moral positions, He supported abortion...so...

    HELL IS YOUR DOOM!!! BURN BABY KILLER!!!


    C'mon, Steaver.

    What about whoever you voted for. Has their never been a time when the person YOU voted for let you down. Does that mean God is going to zap you because a political candidate let you down?

    I'll bet you voted for Ronald Reagan. I personally feel Reagan is probably the best president in my lifetime. Did you vote for him? How about when it was revealed that he and Nancy took into consideration ASTROLOGY regarding decisions? Are you now seen as an astrology practitioner in Gods eyes?

    Baby killing is probably the biggest failing of the United States in this day. I believe its serious enough that it could very well bring Gods wrath down on this country. And I mean in a devastating way. An "end times scenerio" type of way.

    But to say that every person who votes for a candidate who supports abortion is a baby killer is absurd.

    God bless,

    Mike
     
  18. steaver

    steaver Well-Known Member
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    Yes, that is how those who choose not to vote for a good person over a not so good person thinks. Many times they reject very good moral canidates, even within their own party, because the media states that they have no chance of winning. That is placing wanting a party win over biblical morality and it is sick and sad.

    This kind of mentality has nothing to do with "thoughtful" decision making. BOTH parties have thousands of members who vote the party line PERIOD. It matters only to them that their party WINS, they could care less about picking a godly representative. Yes, many want to brag to their buddies at work. I know lots of them. It is a reality.

    No I do not. Christians are fully forgiven eternally. Past, present and future. If Joe loves Jesus Christ he would not be supporting baby murder! The issue would not be at any judgment seat of Christ's.

    Now you are changing the subject. I have always been pointed in stating that you should not support a canidate who you know supports murder. If the canidate says he does not support murder and then he flip flops, that is being let down and the blood would not be on your hands.

    I did not vote at that time....to my shame. I was off living in a life of sin blaming the world for all my self inflicted troubles. I have only been faithfully following the Lord for seven years now. But this sounds like an example of finding out something after the fact. We can only be held accountable for what we know at the time.

    It is not absurd in any way shape or form. Anyone who votes for baby killers is supporting baby killing! What is the vote cast for?? A REPRESENTATIVE. Canidate B REPRESENTS my morals, so I will vote for B. Very SIMPLE!

    Back to the "lesser of two evils". We know and agree that abortion is an evil. So let's take abortion which is always an issue and match it up with other evil issues and determine the lesser of the two. We can even lump more than one and compare them together with abortion. Maybe then abortion will become the lesser. Let's see. Make a list of all the evil issues, I will give it some thought as well, and we will see what we come up with. I know one off of the top of my head...gay marriages...but that one probably will end up on the abortion side. Wow, that will make the abortion side even more evil, not less. Well, will see how it plays out.

    God Bless!
     
  19. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Abortion is still going on. It is big business without any responsibility. At this point I see no difference in the two candidates except to watch as Bush takes our personal freedoms away. When a city can line the pockets of wealthy business owners to make a profit for the city something is wrong. When a city can take a man's business which has made him a living for many years and give it to another business owner something is wrong.

    Isn't that at the heart of commmunism?
     
  20. Mike McK

    Mike McK New Member

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    Steaver,

    Would you be willing to have a dialogue with me playing the pro-choice role, so that we can help you to come up with a more persuasive argument than, "You're a baby killer. You're going to Hell"?

    I think that if you were able to put together a cogent and thoughtful argument, rather than just calling names, you'd be much more successful in persuading people and helping them to consider both sides of the issue.

    I'm going to be away for the long holiday weekend but I would be willing to do this when I get back, if you'd like.

    As someone who's been arguing the pro-life side since the late 80's and had the same attitude as you, I think I can help you to avoid the mistakes that I made.

    Think about it and let me know.
     
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