Bishop John Spong re-thinks Heaven & Hell

No - you asked me what I believed and I told you. I'm not claiming anything. You, however, are.

Amen! However, that does NOT preclude a cleansing for those who are going to heaven. There is no escape from hell. It is apparent that you don't understand what I said.

It says that "...HE APPEARED WITHOUT SIN UNTO SALVATION." This says nothing about the fact that we will die with sin that must be removed by Jesus' sacrifice.

And it would appear that you have a problem with civility.

Peace!

 

IF it were true that the subtitionary atoning sacrifice (payment) by Christ in our behalf was not all that is needed - but rather we ourselves needed to be "cleansed" in some way after death so that we can be fit for heaven -- then there can be no "escaping" that cleansing without getting to heaven "still dirty". Thus no such thing as the supposedly infallalbe teaching of "indulgences".

I keep pointing that out - but no answers from the purgatory-ish group.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You make a good point. However, ever since I was saved I've wondered why do I still struggle with a sin nature? Why? Wasn't Jesus Attoning Sacrifice enough to get rid of it entierely the moment I asked him into my life? And what is it about death that guarantees this immediately dropping off of sin nature if its not done in this life?

 

All true of course.

2Cor 5;10 we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body - whether they be good or evil.

Rev 14:6-7 and prior to the 2nd coming you have this announcement from heaven "Fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment HAS come".

The happens prior to the 2nd coming because as Rev says "My Reward is with ME" - all accounts are settled just prior to the 2nd coming.

Thus in Dan 7 we see the 2nd coming event takes place just after "judgment is passed in favor of the saints".

In the Rev 20 case - you are shooting your own argument in the foot - because the Rev 20:12 event is after the 1000 years, it is after the first resurrection - it applies only to those wicked that were not raised in the first resurrection - but are consigned to the 2nd resurrection - after the 1000 years.

 

Correct! There is no condemnation in purgatory. There is, however, purification.

Purgatory (or whatever you wish to call it) is part of heaven. I never said there was a third place - you said that.

Peace!

 

I don't hold to an accurate chronological structure of the book of Revelation. That idea comes from the dispensationlist veiw.


Peace!

 

Because you are still in sinful flesh. Paul explains this.

Romans 7:23-25 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

Paul observes the problem you speak of in Romans 7 - seeing a gap between what he does in this life and the fact that with his mind he agrees with the Law of God and serves the Law of God.

Romans 8 is the answer - "By the Holy Spirit" daily "putting to death the deeds of the flesh" - as Christ said "take up your cross daily and follow Me".

The thing we struggle with is our sinful nature (that gets removed at the resurrection). We also struggle with our own defects of character - bad habbits cultivated in this life - beyond the sinful desires and defects we are all born with -- that gets resolved by turning to God.

in Col 2 - Paul says "as you RECEIVED Christ Jesus so WALK in Him".

The key is not in some future deed - it is the first deed - it is doing what you did at first - as a lost sinner - turning your will over to God - submitting all to Him.

Retaining that same attitude/decision/act of submitting to God that comes at the moment of conversion - combined with the taking away of the sinful nature at the resurrection is all that is needed. As many of the texts point out - we are to "persevere" in that first decision - it is not a case of living long enough to "reach a new decision" but rather the determination to hold perseveringly to the FIRST one.

Letting go of that first "I surrender all decision" and then failing is the struggle that we face.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Well then, show me the scripture to prove it. Purgatory (or whatever) is in heaven??? There is a judging of fire in heaven???

That is why I said this stuff is in your head, not being uncivil, just an accurate statement. There is no scriptural support for such a belief.

 

Yeah but look at the last part of that verse he says

thats a statement in the current not wait until your dead.

 

Thats all a part of sanctification. but do you know anyone who has reached perfection when they died? I don't.

 

You are currently in the body of sinful flesh and you will war with it until you die. When we were saved, God did not remove the sinful nature, but gave us a new nature. These two natures are always at war with one another until the physical body dies.

 

Well then you are opening a huge gap in your argument because all those in Rev 20:12 are sent to the lake of fire to suffer the second death.

IF that is in fact how this all works out - judgment by works - tossed into the lake of fire - then you have a solution that is no solution at all except that all sinners get "deleted". Ideally we would want salvation to show up there someplace.

It is beyond dispute that Rev 19 and 20 go to gether and that Rev 20 clearly describes events before and after the 1000 years.

In that one text alone - only those raised in the first resurrection are blessed and holy.

Thus their judgment by works is found in 2Cor 5:10 and takes place as Rev 14 says - prior to the 2nd coming.

It is easy to show that Rev 14 is prior to the 2nd coming (without simply arguing that Rev 14 comes before Rev 19) because the text itself says that this is part of the everlasting Gospel that is going to all those on the earth - and in that same text it describes subsequent actions - for example setting up the image to the beast.

in Christ,

Bob

 

I gave you scriptural support in post #59 and you completely ignored it. You probably disagree with my interpretation of those scriptures. Conversly, I disagree with yours - now what? Is your interpretation less fallible than mine? You believe what you've been told/taught by others. How do you know that those who taught you had the correct interpretation?

Peace!

 

She asked for your scripture to support this. You failed to provide it.


Our purification has already been completed:

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

And it will be realized at our redemption:

Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

1Pe 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Scripture is the only authoritative source for revelation from God:

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Sources outside of scripture bear no authority or credibility as coming from God. That is a key Baptist doctrine and anyone who holds to anything otherwise is not a Baptist.

 

But Paul still says

This indicates that Jesus saved Paul from the body of death. And I don't understand the mind thing because my mind is still sinful. In fact I would not consider sin save that my mind imagined it first. Whats going on here? Is Paul contradicting himself? Am I being lied to? Arghhhhhhhhhhh!

 

Not at all. Purgatory can be considered the anti-chamber of Heaven - something like an isolation chamber as it were. You cannot enter in (or go through the gates) until you are purified.

Peace!

 

What I believe comes straight from God's word. I have proven it to you. You have ignored it and state that there are outside sources to prove your view. (not everything was written in the Bible, as you claim) Your only source so far is only your opinion.


In one post you say "there must be a purification that takes place after one’s death and before one enters heaven."


In another post you say "Purgatory (or whatever you wish to call it) is part of heaven."


Which is it? If you would only stick to scripture, you would not be caught in these contradictions, because the truth is in God's word.

 

Calm down. :laugh:

We are saved and redeemed (in the here & now), yet we will not see the end result until death. Make sense?