Bishop's Letter on Unjustness of Iraq War

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by Haruo, Mar 28, 2003.

  1. Haruo

    Haruo
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    On March 7, in a pastoral letter at the beginning of Lent, the bishop with supreme spiritual authority over all Byzantine-rite Romanian Catholics in the USA stated that the then approaching US war with Iraq does not meet even the most minimal standards of a just war in Catholic Just War Theory (which is also appealed to by many Baptists and other Christians seeking support for military actions), and forbade his flocks to participate in or cooperate with this war. Scroll down on this page for the letter's text

    Haruo
     
  2. Hardsheller

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    I don't think the Bishop would ever see a War he could call a Just War. :eek:
     
  3. Scott J

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    Iraq has violated the terms of treaties designed to protect us from WMD. This was proven to a great degree before the war and is now indisputable. The liberation of the Iraqi people from this tyrant is a desirable side effect but not a reason in and of itself for going to war.
     
  4. mozier

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    For those who don't know, the "Romanian" Rite is one of the Eastern (or Byzantine) Rites of the Roman Catholic Institution that were once under Eastern Orthodoxy, but subsequently went back into full communion with Rome. This Rite is comprised of Romanians who broke off from the Romanian Orthodox. Most Eastern European Orthodox groups have something like this (eg. Ukrainian Catholic/Ukrainian Orthodox).

    Regardless of whether the Rites are Eastern or Western, however, it is still one Institution, all under the Pope.


    mozier
     
  5. Terry_Herrington

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    Why should anybody care what some Roman Catholic bishop says? :eek:
     
  6. KenH

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    Especially, Terry, on a board full of Baptists. [​IMG]
     
  7. LadyEagle

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    Click here: Friday's Sermon in Baghdad

    Only Conclusion one can draw -

    the Bishop & the Sheikh are on the same side; it doesn't matter about the 1.5 million Muslims Saddam has slaughtered, WMD, 09/11, or war on terrorism.

    All that matters is the defeat and destruction of the US and Israel.
     
  8. The Baptist Tape Maker

    The Baptist Tape Maker
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    It's time we tell the Catholics, French, Russians, & the UN that we couldn't care less what they think...

    I'm sick of hearing how this person and that organization condemned the war- The United States Congress authorized the President to use force, the President has, and the military is following orders and that's all it takes my friend.

    The United States needs support from only one city to go to war, not New York (UN), not Paris, not even Rome, but Washington D.C. and she has that support so let the bombs fly...
     
  9. pinoybaptist

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    Don't anybody get me wrong now. I have a son in the US Air Force and he has not been deployed yet, but if he does get deployed, he will go.
    And I have more respect for the Iraqui expatriates who hate Saddam Hussein but will go home anyway to fight the US troops, than those people in this country who stage "die-ins" and march and wail and badmouth this country and its president while hypocritically saying they support the troops but not the war !
    Having said that, here are my views on these events.

    1. Whatever it is that prompted President Bush to send troops to that country, it had to be something far more than the rhetorics about freeing the Iraqis from Saddam Hussein, or personal hatred for the tyrant (as some say it is).

    2. Had it not been for that motivation, whatever it was, who really cares whether Saddam Hussein kills all the Shiites or the Kurds ? Certainly, not the hypocrite French and Germans and Russians who stand to lose their deals with the dictator, and certainly not the US or Britain who can find other more pleasant places to go to. The Afghan war would not have happened, and the incidental "liberation" of the Afghans had Osama bin Laden not been operating from there.

    But, whatever. President Bush, I believe, was acting to protect the safety of this country and that of all people living under this country's flag, including Iraqi-Americans, and Arab-Americans, and the "dying-in" Americans and for that, as far as I'm concerned, he and our soldiers ought to be supported.
     
  10. Matt Black

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    Because he's a fellow-Christian, and last time I looked, it was at least good manners to pay attention to what other Christians, particularly those of some standing in the church, have to say.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  11. Ernie Brazee

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    When did Rome return to rule the world? I can understand religious people following the Roman empire, but Baptist?
     
  12. LadyEagle

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    I'm a Baptist and don't care what the pope thinks about anything. [​IMG] Especially since there's so much corruption with the pedophile priests. :(
     
  13. The Baptist Tape Maker

    The Baptist Tape Maker
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    Because he's a fellow-Christian, and last time I looked, it was at least good manners to pay attention to what other Christians, particularly those of some standing in the church, have to say.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
    </font>[/QUOTE]No Catholic Bishop has any "standing" in my church, I am an INDEPENDENT BAPTIST- which simply means there are two offices in the church, the Pastor's and Deacons any thing more is sin...

    Nomatter how you look at the Catholic Church is a cult and its leaders are either deceived and misguided individuals or deceievers themselves.

    I believe the following verses apply to the Catholic Church:
    I Tim. 4.1-3
    &
    Matt. 7.21-23

    This is the BAPTIST board, not the catholic discussion board.
     
  14. Matt Black

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    Hmm...perhaps a re-reading of Romans 14 is in order?

    I too believe in congregational autonomy; but I also think it is important for us not to exist in isolation as Christians and Baptists, and therefore when another Christian of note says something, we should sit up and take notice.

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  15. LadyEagle

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    http://www.catholicmil.org/html/news.html

    (sigh) Obviously the Bishop hasn't had the final say on this matter. And is out of the loop.

    God Bless Our Catholic Coalition Troops who are Serving a Noble Cause!
    [​IMG]

    Too bad some people can't find it in their Christian Hearts to Support their Troops now that we are at war.

    One would think the Christian thing to do would be to pray for them and encourage them instead of trying to beat down their morale and continue to debate this war now that we are already engaged. :rolleyes:

    (sigh)
     
  16. Ernie Brazee

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    Excuse me for being honest, but this is a Baptist board and throughout history Baptists have never acknowledged Rome as a Christian church!

    To call the Pope and Rome Christian, is to deny the truth of God's word.

    Revelation 17:
    1 And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:
    2 With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.
    3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
    4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
    5 And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
    6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
     
  17. fromtheright

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    Although I thoroughly support the President in this war, I am also thoroughly respectful of the Catholic Church's role in developing the concept of just war. I just think that they are very wrong in their judgement of this war and in any application of just war they may be making in judging the war. Western civilization, and those against whom we have fought, has much to be grateful to Catholicism for in this concept which has done so much to civilize warfare (the contrast between the American military ethic and the Iraqi one is stark demonstration that this is not an oxymoron). And please spare me the Crusade references, as it our inheritance of this concept by which we can judge any atrocities then committed.

    For an interesting discussion of just war, I refer the reader to this article from Intercollegiate Review, a publication of the Intercollegiate Studies Institute, a conservative organization and publication.
     
  18. The Baptist Tape Maker

    The Baptist Tape Maker
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    Special Thanks Brother Ernie...

    The Mother of all Harlots (Catholic Church) has from its very begining persecuted the true Christians and made a mockery of God's Blessed word. Now don't get me wrong I believe we will see some memebers of the Catholic Church in heaven, however I can not see why a TRUE Baptist would look to Rome for guidance... The very same Church who pray's to Mary, the very same church who invented indulgences, the very same church which forbids its priests to marry (while the Bible says "The husband of one wife..."), the very same church who equates a slobering old man in diapers to God, the very same church who teaches one must follow the 7 Sacraments inorder to be saved (May I suggest reading Eph. ch 2, to you), the very same church to believes in the limbo world of purgatory, the very same church who has perverted and blasted the Word of God.

    I don't know what you may believe, but as for me their is but one church and that is Christ's Church and its not ruled from Rome, but its a heavenly kingdom, and although I consider Mary to be a great lady she is only that- A great lady, I'm thankful that my prayers are all in JESUS' NAME and in His blood alone is my salvation resting upon..."On Christ, I stand; the solid rock of all ages, all other ground is sinking sand"
     
  19. Matt Black

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    Excuse me for being honest also, but I think your comments are way out of line, brother! I know of no Baptists or Baptist churches that take this judgmental view. Yes, the Catholic Church has a lot of errors, but every Christian denomination has truth and error in it; that's why we need each other. We are all human and fallen short of the glory of God, and none of us either corporately or individually can have the arrogance to claim that we have got it right. IN the words of our fellow-Baptist, Tony Campolo, the most we can hope for is to be "partly right".

    As for your own particular interpretation of Rev 17, well, if I had a £100 for every view I've ever heard on that passage I'd be retired by now: they are as rife as views on the millenium, tribulation and rapture; various theories ranging from the RCC (as per you), communism (Moscow has 7 hills too but I note that one seems be have been largely quietly dropped in the wake of the collapse of communism), the EU (that theory is currently in vogue in some of the more far-out charismatic churches over here), Islam ( this one is also back in fashion after a bit of a break for the last dozen years or so), capitalism (!)(money being the Mark of the Beast etc), the New Age, etc etc ad nauseam. So I regard your view as no more accurate than any of the others.

    So I'd appreciate it if we could drop the Catholic-bashing; it does us no credit as fellow-Christians. Rom 14

    Yours in Christ

    Matt
     
  20. Anthro

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    "For I passed on to you the most important points of what I received: Christ died for our sins in keeping with the Scriptures, he was buried, he was raised on the third day in keeping with the Scriptures" (1Co 15:3-4).

    The above should speak for itself.

    Revelation 17 as a proof text, eh? That too should speak for itself.

    The Catholic Church's role in developing the concept of just war is indeed a God-send, in my view--I say this in concurrence with fromtheright.

    I also share Matt's observations, with one exception. Matt stated, "I know of no Baptists or Baptist churches that take this judgmental view." I wish I had this as a shared experience. I am sorry to say, however, that I know MANY, MANY of them that do take this view, and base it in part on Rev. 17.

    My best friend is Catholic. He was saved while--of all things!--sitting in a Catholic Church in Latin America. He sat looking up at the crucifx as the priest read from the gospel of Mark on Christ's crucifixion. God spoke, my friend responded, we are brothers.

    Now:

    The 18th century sociologist Emile Durkheim showed how individuals come to think alike by internalizing their idea of the social order. He showed that within this social order, there is a shared symbolic universe and classifications of nature, and that these come to embody the principles of authority and coordination. Within such a system, individuals then internalize the social order and project it out onto nature. The social order thereby becomes moral and legitimate to them. Durkheim extended his idea to show that this social order becomes sacred, and deep solidarity forms around it. He argues that the character of the sacred is dangerous, and that when endangerment comes to it, it is as if a calling arises from the social order for every good citizen to defend its bastions.

    Some would argue that Durkeim's observations give a lot of insight into the institutional Catholic Church and many Catholics. While that may be true, I think we have seen an at least equal measure of Durkeim's observations exhibited in this thread coming from certain Baptists. And what is worse is they do not appear in the slightest to see it in themselves.

    [ April 02, 2003, 06:02 AM: Message edited by: Anthro ]
     

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